Coming from Oblivion I never quite got why it was possible to wear clothes under armor as my Oblivion character wears armor as clothes. But the ongoing simplification is something I′m generally against.

Coming from a cold climate, I've never quite gotten the notion of NOT wearing clothing under iron armor!

I do too, but Cyrodiil is mostly warm! And for the cold area you have fur armor

Good. Glad we got that clear.



Okay, you got a point. Bargaining is stronger in Oblivion, for sure, it makes sense and feels natural. This is what people do IRL when they want a better deal.

On the other hand, I don't miss that clunky disposition wheel thingie at all. Having a "conversation" in which the PC jokes, jousts, compliments, and whatever the 4th choice was over and over is not natural. I would agree there needs to be some sort of improvement here, though I don't know what it could be.

Lockpicking in Skyrim, for instance, is simply intuitive. I feel like I'm picking a lock in Skyrim, not playing a mini-game. But having a "disposistion discussion"? I'm glad this is gone.



No they're not. They're not totally gone. You're doing it again ... that "black and white" thing that bugged me in your OP.

I would agree that Cyrodiilic NPC's did socialize more than Skyrim's characters, but most of this was off-topic nonsense which (as you've noted) was repetitive. NPC interaction still exists in Skyrim. It's just not as often as in Cyrodiil.

Also, my current Skyrim character Claire Voyance still hears reactions to the fact that she's part of the College all the time. "You're that mage from the college"...bla bla bla. She hears reactions to some of her accomplishments, too. She hears reactions to the fact that she likes wearing light armor. I've never heard an NPC comment on the armor my character is wearing in Cyrodiil. Or if she looks "ill".

When NPC's do interact in an on-topic manner in Skyrim, the things they say have a tendency to grab my attention more. In Cyrodiil, I found myself constantly blowing NPC's off when they pvssyd. Or listening with half-an-ear, maybe having a chuckle here and there at the nonsense they spouted, because most of the time, that's exactly what it was: nonsense. It made me laugh, but rarely would I be able to take it seriously, even in a roleplay sense.

Let's look a little deeper now, at NPC interactions. If Claire casts her Clairvoyance spell near a guard, chances are he'll have an adverse reaction to this: "Keep that magic stuff away from me!" This makes sense to me that a non-magic using guard would not trust magic, that he would trust only his blade, and that therefore he wants Claire to keep way from him.

In Oblivion, you could throw a 70-point lightning bolt inches away from a guard's head. Where was the reaction to this? There was only a reaction of you actually hit the guard.

Now my main critiques. What bugs me in Skyrim is if my character walks too close to an NPC, I know there's a good chance I'm gonna get one of those flat, declarative statements. "I work for Belathor, in the General Goods store" is an example. The first time you hear this, you're like COOL! I'll stop by sometime! After the 3rd time...it's like "um...I KNOW dude". After the 46th time, I'm facepalming!

It would make more sense if they said just "hey, how's it going" or something generic like this. When I pass somebody in the street, I say "hi". I don't say "I used to be a tax accountant like you, then I took a default bankruptcy and foreclosed".

On the other hand, I find myself paying attention to Skyrim's NPC's more, it's literally possible to miss something random which could actually matter later on if you're not paying attention. Claire then makes a judgement call whether or not she wants to get involved with their problems and concerns. Sometimes she does not, matter of fact. Sometimes she does. It all depends on the roleplay at that moment.




So what? Why does everything have to be exactly the way it was in previous games? Why can't the team focus on new directions?

Yes, there is less in these regards, but you're ignoring the fact that lots of new elements have been introduced. Smithing. Crafting. New spells (there are some new spells, ya know). Better, much more vivid spell effects. Fireballs that move MUCH faster than they did in Oblivion. More non-threatening animals (rabbits and such) out in the wilderness. A much greater draw distance. Horses that move in variable speeds, rather than just running or galloping, as in Oblivion. Et cetera.

The way I see it, magic, alchemy, spell-making (etc.) took a nose-dive in the 200 years after the Oblivion crisis occured. This makes total sense. Technology does not always move forward and improve. So what if magic and alchemy aren't as great?

Skyrim in general is run-down and somewhat pathetic. Its single "College" is not trusted by the majority of the Nords, for obvious reasons. I would expect that in this atmosphere, magic-users haven't got the time and resources to perfect certain apects of their crafts, the way they were able to during the days when the Empire actually backed the Arcane University and dozens of magic-users could spend all day doing "research".




I highly doubt that. I have faith in Bethesda. True, they've dumbed down the numbers side, and this does irk me a bit, but the bottom line is I still get to play the role I want to play. And I have (as I said) nearly a dozen ideas for future characters I'm gonna try in Skyrim.

...I want to try to explain a few things here, and I'm only spending time typing all of this because I care, and because I want to maybe illuminate you to new ways of thinking. I don't know about you, but I grew up with The Fantasy Trip and Dungeons and Dragons--both of which are considered the original RPG's, the ones which started it all.

What made these games role-playing games wasn't all the numbers, the fact that we used dice, dozens of books, the stat sheets, etc...what made them RPG's was the fact that they allowed you to play a role, with a single character or multiple characters. Role-playing. That's why we call the genre "role-playing games". This is what it's about. PLaying a role. Imagination was key back in the day.

....You rolled the dice, you killed the troll, you got the troll's loot. It wasn't so much that you just killed a troll and got his loot...what was your character's reaction to this? Did your character sulk? Did he celebrate? Did she start to plot against her team to steal a larger amount of the gold?

All of these extra things (the celebration, the plotting, the sulking, etc.) were not included in the original adventure books. They came about because we were playing a role. As we got deeper and deeper into this role, we started to realize

(1). not all characters have the same reactions and interactions with their world

(2). after awhile, our charcters might start doing things which we ourselves would not do, under any circumstances. Now we're RPing!

Just because TES games are becoming more and more visual, and their action side is becoming more and more fluid (generally) does not mean they're lesser RPG's. I still get my roleplay kick, in some ways more so than in those dice & paper RPG's I played long ago.





Not for me it isn't.

No offense, but it almost seems as if you're desperate for me (and some others here) to say "yes". Why is it so hard for you to see some of us enjoy a game for what it is?

He's saying what he prefers. Why is it that he can't have an opinion that differs from yours?

I'll say it, too: there are many things in Skyrim that are accomplished, but I really, really miss the extensive spell and potions system of the previous ES titles. Because they gave us a lot of diversity of effect, with all sorts of strategies for building better, more involved magical combos, and solutions to different situations our characters found themselves in. Do I want this because it was in previous ES games? No, but like the quote above, I note those games showed us what a great magic and alchemy system was. It was a real gem in the ES series. It's now been removed. They fixed what ain't broke--perhaps because the rules-based combat AI was never at its best in selecting from a variety of spells and potions in combat situations. So instead of adding more rules, they did away with the spells and potion effects. Just a thought.

We're not discussing smithing or crafting. We're discussing something we really liked, and didn't want to see removed. If you don't care, that's fine, but please--don't attack us for preferences that don't mirror yours.

@fable2: I don't have a problem with opinions, I do have a problem with the attitude lots of gamers have.. "Oblivion had the Arena, spellcrafting, and mismatched armor sets. Since this stuff is gone, the game is dumbed down" Old Grog (and tons of others) then ignore all the new things which have been added.

In your case, you want to fine-tune the discussion towards magc, while seeming to ignore why Oblivion's superior magics system was removed. okay. But don't act like Bethesda just removed a bunch of things without adding new ones. That's what bugs me. Bethesda is trying something new. At least they're trying something new! not removing stuff without adding new things.

also, I'm not attacking you or Old Grog or anybody else, I'm discussing. If I were to "attack" you, believe me you'd know the difference. I don't want to do that, though, because I do see you all as online friends , even if we don't always agree.

I would suggest you've constructed a Straw Man argument. Many people who think Skyrim is dumbed down are doing so for very sophisticated reasons that they elaborate in detail. Whether or not you agree with these arguments, finding the most abbreviated and unconsidered expression of this view to present as the general opinion of those one disagrees with does little good.


Funny. I'd swear I'd written, "They fixed what ain't broke--perhaps because the rules-based combat AI was never at its best in selecting from a variety of spells and potions in combat situations. So instead of adding more rules, they did away with the spells and potion effects. Just a thought." above. Which offers my speculation--as good as any other--why all the spells and potions have been removed.

Why, it appears I did.


Renee, I think you're missing my point (and that of Glargg, though I obviously can't speak for him/her). We 're not discussing in this instance what Skyrim adds, but rather, something that was removed that we thought was perfect as it was. You, I, and the rest of the ES series players are under no obligation to discuss the good elements in a game everytime we want to discuss the bad ones, and vice versa. We're discussing our opinions, and in doing so, stating the things that we individually give greatest weight to in forming our decisions. Look at it this way: if someone decides they don't like Budapest because they can't stand the Hungarian language, it will certainly seem odd; and we can point out that there's a fantastic cultural scene, tons of good food, great parks, fantastic transportation system, stunning history, etc. The fact that they haven't stated these things isn't because they're unaware of the pluses, but because the language issue simply trumps the rest for them. And that's just a simplified example. In judging Skyrim, I could come up with many minuses that, to me, right now, trump the various positives, because like anybody else, I weight them differently according to my preferences and experiences. I don't have to mention the latter when explaining why I'm waiting on mods. And I suspect you know already that I'm not stating anybody who loves Skyrim is wrong. You know my feelings about that.


I have no problems with this.

Sorry to ask but have you even paid any attention when you were playing Skyrim? Or did you just hate the game from the start?
I'll give you an example, in Shor's Stone all the NPCs get together at the campfire by night and start talking, it always ends up with the Orc and the Breton challenging each other to see who can mine the most ore, are you telling me that is not socializing? In Skyrim they also react to your actions, I mean have you even played Skyrim? "Don't go burning any thing" "A Iron Sword, what are you trying to kill, butterflies?" I'll give you another example with out spoilers, when you kill a certain person her niece takes her place in the store, but her niece eye color changes, they turn bloodshot, as if she was crying her eyes out for her aunt. this among other things give Skyrim it's charm.
But the valid reason that you have is...I miss attributes...I miss the numbers for some strange reason.

I don't like fewer armor slots, but I do understand why. They are trying to prevent people from easily breaking the game. It's still possible to break the game, but more difficult to now.

To be honest, I don't mind having fewer armor slots. I never mix armor types unless there is literally nothing else to be had. My characters dress for appearance, and keeping the materials the same is what generally looks best. I have been playing Morrowind lately, and there are way too many pieces of armor. It is a real pain in the rear to take my armor off and put on city clothes, or vice-versa, so I find my characters never do it anymore. Where in Oblivion my characters always change out of their armor when entering a city. I know most people just miss the extra things to enchant. But since I am not a powergamer, I really do not care about that at all.

@ fable2: fair enough, I suppose. I get passionate about TES games, as we all do.


I've found myself nearly asking Grog this, too. He seems to have missed a lot, yet he claims to have played 500 hours. I'll take his word for it I guess.




MM hmm. My characters usually do this too. Except my pure mage The Grey Wizard. He'd always wear his Arch Mage's robes or one of his other robes into towns, just to let the NPC's know he's this God walking on Nirn.

One thing I will say, fable2, and that is I do believe Bethesda is gonna give us some sort of upgraded magic system at some point, via updates or DLC. I'll put money on it. It's like the #1 thing everyone is upset about.

There are people who hate Oblivion it seems, who criticize it left and right and seem to have derived very little satisfaction from it. The one thing some of these folks praise it for would be its magic system. Spell creation, et cetera.

Here. Here are 20 virtual dollars. *throws $20 into the magic pot* I'm throwing this money in this pot, saying that right here, right now, I'm betting spell creation will eventually make a return to Skyrim.

Heh! Of that, I have no doubt at all, because it's already happening: Midas Magic has set up camp in Skyrim, and it's modders created one of the best spell-adding systems in Oblivion. Remains to be seen what others will appear: LAME, Supreme Magicka, etc.

I'm not sure about gamesas adding it--maybe, maybe not. Remember, there were a lot of focused complaints about Oblivion, especially about character leveling and item/enemy scaling, but they left these entirely up to modders. Guess we'll just wait, and see. I think the first two months after the CK appears will tell us quite a bit about how modders can and will change the game.

You're not adding any money to the pot then?

I think it'll happen. It certainly could happen. This friend of mine has a game called Gran Turismo 5, for instance. He's told me how a year ago, it had all these problems, but over the past year, the devs of that game have been eliminating each of these concerns, one by one. I don't really know how that works myself, but it seems correcting issues via updates and possibly DLC seems to be the way it is now.

The game gets released on 11/11/11, even though it is basically incomplete and not totally bug-tested. Bethesda (and other game devs) these days seem to let the games fly anyways, knowing stuff will be adressed in the future. At least I hope this is how it's gonna work.

Killer Penguin and Renee Gade lll;

You can't take an isolated incident of 'interaction' in Skryim and thereby conclude its NPC's interact just as much as Oblvion. They don't. (Or even moderately less) I shouldn't have to defend this assertion either- it is a point of fact. I don't recall ever saying Skyrim was 'dumbed down' as has been alluded to me either. I have said it may be what more people want.

On poster asked if I'd hated the game from the start- or if I'm missing everything. Guys and Gals: I see what you do. I enjoy the moments of interaction. But they are not numerative as earlier Elder scrolls games. I am not as young and certainly not as quick as I once was but I can still toddle around and don't even have to gum my food yet. . If you honestly believe the NPC's interact with each other and the player as much as in Oblivion then we have an impasse of basic perception that will not be changed through dialogue. I find myself wondering why you strain so hard to defend what is very obviously missing- or deny there are missing assets? Assets are gone. Choices are gone. Many here are saying the Game as is is enjoyable and superior to what has gone before. I only agree with the first part of the sentiment.

We really need to get to the place where we agree upon what has gone and decide if what is there is enough. It is not enough for me. It is as good as Fallout3 or NV - it's worth Game of the Year, but not worth playing for as long. In my household my sons played Fallout 3 and tired after several months. Game time was limited by school and sharing of the unit, so this took some time it might not have if they'd had complete access- as I have. I can play late into the night. I don't recall the exact number of playthroughs with Fallout 3, a game some of you have not played, but it worth the comparison because it is constructed so much like Skyrim.

I think I played Fallout about 5 times before letting it go. I'm on the third go round with Skyrim and am starting to feel like it's time to leave.


When Skyrim came out I was blown away- after 5 years of waiting. I wrote to Bethesda once every year during that time, asking them to do another Elder Scrolls game. I know many of you did the same. I was not at all poised to 'hate' Skyrim, nor do I 'hate' it now. Skyrim had me trembling- as had Fallout once before. But it is not as sustaining for me. Others are sharper about games than I. I was not raised on them. There are posters on these forums who knew what Todd Howard was saying when he released information about Skyrim and they were worried back then. I wasn't. I trusted Bethesda that even if they went to a Fallout style character build, they would do it in such a way that the character depth would be preserved. It took time, but I've come to see it was not preserved.

Obviously sharp people like Renee Gade lll are telling me Skyrim is fullfilling for them. The loss of assets has not been an issue for many people. If so, Howard did good. Let's please not argue whether or not those assets are gone- because they are. I'll enjoy Howard's game and put it back on the shelf when I'm done; where it belongs. It's in great company- there are many GOTY's on the shelf. There are only a very very few games that can be played repeatedly for me, (and others) and Skyrim is not one of them.

I hope very much, that Bethesda will return and address any deficiencies as some posters have suggested. I love that about you!! I love the optimism. I'm inclined to think this is it,though; Howard himself said that Fallout 3 taught him how to make a game. He proved it with Fallout 4, I mean Skyrim.....

I liked coming up with armor combinations that look good together, but where not built to go together. Most of Aravi's armor from Oblivion was mixed and matched from several different sets.

I do think allowing clothing below the armor is too many enchanting slots. Oblivion was laughably easy to break with enchanting slots, I cannot imagine what you could do in Morrowind.

Okay: I'll see your bet of $20 virtual: gamesas won't add spellcasting to Skyrim. Only modders will. I can't see the company changing the way they've worked from Arena, up until now. They'll fix much of what's broken, but they won't add major new components to any game; never have.


Thing is, they've grown lazy. They expect modders to do the work for them, as they have in Morrowind and Oblivion. I think that actually contributed to the sense of incompleteness in Skyrim, since they know it won't stand as-is. The only real way of killing the sweet setup gamesas has going, now, in my opinion? Do something that kills off modding directly, or move it to multiplier. And the current owners aren't stupid enough to take the axe to the golden goose's neck.

I have to disagree with this statement. You can't look at Skyrim and write it off as the product of lazy people. Lazy people would be releasing Morrowind II or Oblivion II. They create the game that they think will appeal to the most people (and they did a great job of that, just looking at sales). They heavily support mods because it's just smart to do so when it takes as long as it does to create a game like this. They also know they cannot please everyone, so supporting mods is smart that everyone can change it as they want.

There certainly isn't any expectations placed on the modding community though. I don't see how you can make a statement like that.

I agree that it's too many enchanting slots. Instead of removing clothing slots, though, they could have simply limited enchantment slots. They already had that capability, given that the number of rings/necklaces was limited.

By removing the clothing slots, they have limited role playing opportunities.

Forcing matched clothing sets is an incredibly stupid idea. It's completely logical (and quite historically correct) for a lightly armored combatant to wear only a cuirass along with ordinary clothing. It's also perfectly logical for a swordsman to wear just the gauntlets and boots. This is the kind of game-changing that does nothing to improve anything, but only serves to limit role play.

My Etta character is a swashbuckler. She mixes armor (heavy shield, leather boots, leather gauntlets) and clothing (middle class top, upper class bottom.) She dresses that way to support the imagined character. If I had to do this all by imagining it, I would do so, but the ability to "bring it to life" on my monitor makes the enjoyment better.

I simply don't understand some of the arguments in this discussion. People seem to be saying "I wish they had kept thus-and-so, but it doesn't matter, because you can imagine it." Or "...because they can mod it back in." Well, if they wish it had been kept, then maybe it does matter.

I noticed a pattern of "I love Oblivion". This is one of the typical topics that I hate (don't misunderstand, I don't hate you, it's just that these kinds of posts irritate me because you've taken out what's your own opinion, basically as if it's a generally accepted one. It's not.

Let me see..

Really? I myself played a bunch of RPGs, I can even say RPGs are my favrite genre of gaming. I've read tons of fantasy (and other genres of literature, but not related to games so nvm), and did a hell of a lot more RPing and D&D sesions. Do I dislike Skyrim? No, I love the game, and I personally think Bethesda is coming back to teh track in quality.

Furthermore..

See, that's the pattern of "I love Oblivion" I mentioned above, but my comment on it is

AS much as I was raised as a kid to read, RP and do other extensively 'nerdy' stuff, aka spending hours of my time making a layout of my character on paper and that character's biography, even for ones I am to play in a game, I have proved you wrong. I already played Skyrim way longer than I played Oblivion. I did maybe what.. 2 playtroughs in that game? Personally Oblivion was nothing but a cheap stealing of TES title, I hated it's main story, I hated the cheesy european-tale graphics where I expected to see Unicorns (not to mention how much I wasn't shocked when I actually found one), and vanilla character generation was basically the same as Morrowind's except they cut out some good skills. Axe is blunt? Really? I don't count aesthetics for anything good, since it was a total pain in the ass to create a character that didn't look like a rapist. So all I liked in that game was a couple of side quests, and Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood story lines were ok with exceptions of couple of really neat quests. That's all. So see, I do not agree. DId that make me make a thread about how Oblivion really svcks and Bethesda is going a different way and I feel disappointed? No.


So see, I highlighted your usage of we. We do have a game that appeals to those who demand entertainment, and for me the game last way longer than Oblivion in only a couple of months being out. Character generation did nothing bad for me, if anything it got rid of having to plan how will my character level all the way to level 50. You have a weird misconception of what does it mean to plan a character and "see the result a couple of days later instead of now". Planning your whole leeling sheet is not that and takes away most of the fun, if I have to leave the atmosphere of the game for putting all my progress on a notepad, or otherwise horrible leveling system will get me killed on the next encounter with a single wolf I'd ask myself something.

So I really don't see what is there that is so much 'more' in Oblivion than in Skyrim. Skyrim has barrows, caves, cities settlements etc. Oblivion has nothing more except the fact that every settlement of Oblivion is exactly the same, every single cave looks exactly the same and has no reality, every cave is as flat as an old man's behind, and exception of cities that are very unique and look good, and I like them, but they just don't appeal to my need of a darker atmosphere. Even the whole exterior looks exactly the same, being divided into 3 regions, and each is a copy of another with a small difference of ground texture and color of the grass. Again with exception of the moutain regions which are just a palette swap to snow and less trees, and southern region that resembles a swamp with unique trees.

So please don't put us all in the same box as you see some people do not agree. Every person's opinion is unique, some might agree on some things, and some will agree on others, but don't use "we" because that could make someone think this is the opinion of all, for example TES fans and this community, and then you my opinions in the same basket with yours.


Absolutely exactly what I'm saying. If nothing, Skyrim only enchanced the feeling of RPing, and type of character one can have in the end game is much more diverse with the major-minor(-misc) skill system.

How would they limit enchantment slots without limiting clothing? Please elaborate, because I can't see how they can without telling you "you can't wear more than X number of enchanted articles of clothing."


It's only greaves and the cuirass that was melded. You could still mix up boots and gauntlets at least. I still would prefer tops and bottoms to be separate pieces though.

Uh, by telling you you can't wear more than X number of enchanted articles of clothing.

In Oblivion, I use a mod that allows more rings/amulets to be worn, but limits the number based upon the size of the character's Magicka pool. (I use it so that mages who wear only robes are not deprived of enchantment slots as well as armor.)


Yeah, I was using those as examples. Still, you often see bandits (particularly archers) in vanilla Oblivion wearing only a cuirass with ordinary pants. I think it's especially appropriate for female characters to have the option of combining upper armor with a long skirt.

And I don't believe that there has ever been a type of armor in which greaves and cuirass have actually been one piece. How would one put on armor made that way?

I don't feel that's a good solution. It would be very frustrating if I couldn't use something I've been looking for because it would put me over the enchantment limit.

Okay, so how about "You can't enchant pants."?

I don't have a perfect solution. Make enchanting a bit weaker, maybe. Or limit the quality of enchantment you could put on an ordinary item, as Morrowind does.

How about a system of diminishing returns? Each additional enchanted slot would be slightly less potent than the previous enchantment. The first enchantment might be at 100% strength, the second enchantment 95%, the third 90%, and so on. This might allow the larger numbers of enchantments without becoming too powerful.