obsidians game combat philosophy

Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:01 am

@Eduard:
Never underestimate the power of words. They got Caesar from prisoner to dictator in-game history wise. Out of game the history of humanity is full to the brim of people who beat impossible odds or set the world on fire by words alone. There would be no point in outright killing the inconspicuous single traveler. You might waste ammo, and you might do better to just sneak up on him with a knife when he sleeps. People loaded with power armor and high powered rifles however.... You wouldn't take a chance on those. You'd either stay well clear or wait for the person to remove his helmet. But you would perceive him as much more of a threat than the guy in a ragged outfit with no or few apparent weapons.

You had me going for a moment. I thought you might have responded to me by mistake. I actually had to go back and reread my post.

I was just yankin' yer chain :poke: . Light banter never goes well in text messages :sadvaultboy:

I actually agree with your base philosophy. It's just that I don't want to inject that much realism into my game. this is, after all, an action movie, not a documentary. :ahhh:

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Ebou Suso
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:35 am

I partially agree. For a lot of the game enemies have underwhelming equipment. On my first playthrough, when I started the last mission, I was pretty surprised at all the good weaponry that everyone had and the fact that it's fairly inaccessible otherwise.

Part of it, I think, is that they tried to make caps useful. In FO3, after getting like 2K caps you were pretty much set. In NV, the high-end guns are far more expensive. It'd defeat the purpose of that if every enemy you killed was armed to the teeth with expensive weaponry, because pretty quickly you'd have all the good stuff, and you'd sell what you couldn't use so you'd be rich too. Weapon vendors would be useless, implants would be easy to obtain, etc.

I think smarter enemies would solve the problem better. Make them more of a threat without increasing the value of their loadout too much. Stuff like ambushes or actual snipers would be great. Realistically you might run into a small group, most of which would have low to mid level weapons, maybe with the leader having something decent. But if the encounters themselves were tailored to be actually difficult, that'd work out well.

Definitely agree that human foes were generally lacking. Brotherhood was pretty good with power armor and generally decent weaponry, although they're all holed up in a single bunker so you don't encounter them often. They can also be made way easier by turning the turrets against them or just blowing them all up. =/

you're using the same logic obsidian used for the game and it makes for weak combat and its gonna backfire on em, i won't buy another obsidian game or spend 50 more dollars on dlc, it ain't gonna happen, not unless they add a dlc that truly breathes new life in the base game, as it is now, i ain't wasting my time fighting enemies who are armed with pistols and hatchets, i can wait for ESV for melee fighting and at least have some good exploring and tougher enemies to fight. bethesda doesn't "frustrate" people who play their games with stupid philosophies like " oh lets not give any enemies good weapons cause the player will get em" thats a good way to "not be known" as a good game developer so if they want to keep being mediocre they can keep that philosophy but bethesda isn't a mediocre game developer and their games are far more successfull and once ESV comes out, most of the people into bethesda are gonna put new vegas on the shelf prob permanently.
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Juan Suarez
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:59 am

I disagree about "decide how difficult the game is" even on very hard I don't find the game as challenging as fallout 1 could be. Overall i find enemies to be waaay too easy to kill, yeah there's the occasional exception, but OVERALL they are just too easy to kill... too easy to head shot too. And there's too much ammo laying around. I wish hardcoe mode would drastically decrease the overall ammo available.
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Daniel Brown
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:18 am

You had me going for a moment. I thought you might have responded to me by mistake. I actually had to go back and reread my post.

I was just yankin' yer chain :poke: . Light banter never goes well in text messages :sadvaultboy:

I actually agree with your base philosophy. It's just that I don't want to inject that much realism into my game. this is, after all, an action movie, not a documentary. :ahhh:



-You're right. Humor does tend to get lost in translation in text unless you really know the people you are talking to :).

As for me... I don't see FO as an action movie. I see it as the Epic tale of my ascention to power. The journey of Palpatine from lowly citizen to "benevolent" dictator. The only people I go out of my way to kill are the Fiends. Hell if I could reason with the deathclaws I'd be all for that too. :D
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Mimi BC
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:14 am

Strangely, most of the equiped items are of good health, the super mutant master I killed at level 5 south of Primm had a very good condition minigun.
Those found in lockers, especially early on tend to be in shocking condition.
Thinking about it though, it does make a more pseudo game / realistic point.
A gun equiped and used even day to day by a raider is going to be better looked after than one left at the bottom of damp closet.

The traders however are the bone that I gnaw on.
I can understand leveling items to raise the challange up.
Making traders on heavy traffic routes keep the same X amount of Y tier weapons and no armour, for the entire game makes no sense.
They should have stocked a smalll chance to buy much better equipment early on.
This would also have made the sheer ammount of caps decrease, as it would have provided more options to save or buy early and hope you find ammo.

Certain quests and areas in NV did remind me of Tactics.
Quarry Junctions sniper playground / assault course, and Nelson / Forlorn Hope.
Hopefully on a newer engine some new ways to explore tactical situations open up.

it doesn't take for a new game engine, FO3 had good battles and battlezones, who dares win was a pretty good battle, waters of life, inside and outside on both sides of the capitol building, rileys rangers, la enfant plaza was killer battleground and good fighting, its just the game philosphy obsidian has, they aren't really into the exploration and battles as bethesda is, they're more story and quest driven which is fine but without good well armed enemies to fight and good battlezones, it just makes for a weak aspect of the game.
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Nicole M
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:12 pm

I think combat wise, the human enemies are only a little bit weak. But there's almost none of them. Except for the Legion in like 3 locations and Fiends with no armor, there are almost no human enemies. And most don't respawn. But the number of enemies to fight is soooo low. Remember that one place in FO3 in DC (can't remember the name, it had a crossroads with a bridge and like 5 explosive cars) with 5 Enclave soldiers, more coming from a chopper, Talon Company, and super mutants? NV doesn't need to be THAT intense, but there needs to be groups of enemies that respawn and aren't complete pushovers like the Vipers and Fiends.

Oh and the un-named enemies should respawn. Because the game is no fun when I go into the headquarters of the Legion and theres 3 legionaries there, yet they still somehow mount an assault on the dam with hundreds of legionaries. wtf.
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Krystina Proietti
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:34 am

if the enemies aren't going to be leveled in a game, they need to tough from the beginning and be using good weapons from the get go, its BORING to fight enemies who are using weak peashooters aka 9mm's, varmint rifles, pool ques etc, thats the bottom line, no enemies use marksman rifles until the end of the game, no enemies use energy weapons except for the fiends, no enemies use sniper rifles, so its no fun be at level 20 + in new vegas, i won't play it anymore, i played FO3 for 2 years and it could of been harder but at least the enemies did use some better weapons, gatling lasers, plasma rifles, laser rifles, chinese assault rifles, so the only way no leveling enemies works is if they have good weapons from the beggining of the game. so basically we have to fight low level enemies the entire game, thats what it is, thats a lousy game philospophy. to make a level 20 or 30 character fight level 1 enemies, thats real quality combat


Lies, your just in a low level area.
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Sista Sila
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:45 am

Lies, your just in a low level area.

ROFL low level areas? lol the entire map is low level area except for maybe the spots where deathclaws are, get a clue
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Dragonz Dancer
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:31 am

I think combat wise, the human enemies are only a little bit weak. But there's almost none of them. Except for the Legion in like 3 locations and Fiends with no armor, there are almost no human enemies. And most don't respawn. But the number of enemies to fight is soooo low. Remember that one place in FO3 in DC (can't remember the name, it had a crossroads with a bridge and like 5 explosive cars) with 5 Enclave soldiers, more coming from a chopper, Talon Company, and super mutants? NV doesn't need to be THAT intense, but there needs to be groups of enemies that respawn and aren't complete pushovers like the Vipers and Fiends.

Oh and the un-named enemies should respawn. Because the game is no fun when I go into the headquarters of the Legion and theres 3 legionaries there, yet they still somehow mount an assault on the dam with hundreds of legionaries. wtf.

yeah that spot was la enfant plaza, there aren't any spots like that in new vegas, FO3 had lots of good battlezones and plenty of enemies to kill, maybe a bit much but it was fun, both sides of the capitol building inside and out had good battles going on, also the statesman hotel, adams air base was a killer battle zone i thought, the roosovelt academy and the chryslus building had tons of supermutants to fight, setting traps and sneaking around those huge buildings, nothing in new vegas is close to that. FO3 had lots of places like that.
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jodie
 
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Post » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:31 pm

it doesn't take for a new game engine, FO3 had good battles and battlezones, who dares win was a pretty good battle, waters of life, inside and outside on both sides of the capitol building, rileys rangers, la enfant plaza was killer battleground and good fighting, its just the game philosphy obsidian has, they aren't really into the exploration and battles as bethesda is, they're more story and quest driven which is fine but without good well armed enemies to fight and good battlezones, it just makes for a weak aspect of the game.


I was talking specifically about engine effects that are highly implausable to implement in NV.

Those found in Tactics.
Crawling.
Group combat.
Orders.
Taking height over multipule areas on map.
Organising ambushes.
Setting specific A.I chains at a button push to respond to enemies tactics.
Setting waypoints to outflank.
Switching companion weapons to the task in hand easily.
Breaking down doors, or lock picking them for suprise attacks.

This was directed not at weapons or basic numbers, rather the complexity beyond simple weapon boosts that the FO3 / NV engine is capable of.
NV however has some brilliant battle zones, you just need to go wild and take on factions.
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Tamika Jett
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:52 am

yeah that spot was la enfant plaza, there aren't any spots like that in new vegas, FO3 had lots of good battlezones and plenty of enemies to kill, maybe a bit much but it was fun, both sides of the capitol building inside and out had good battles going on, also the statesman hotel, adams air base was a killer battle zone i thought, the roosovelt academy and the chryslus building had tons of supermutants to fight, setting traps and sneaking around those huge buildings, nothing in new vegas is close to that. FO3 had lots of places like that.

Yea I loved going around and just fighting.

And on a sidenote, the next fallout NEEDS a new engine. This one's old, outdated, unreliable, glitchy, and kinda svcks.
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Kelly Tomlinson
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:38 am

Yea I loved going around and just fighting.

And on a sidenote, the next fallout NEEDS a new engine. This one's old, outdated, unreliable, glitchy, and kinda svcks.

yeah i agree, i'm looking forward to ESV though
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Dalton Greynolds
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:31 am

I just wish that, at some point, NCR troopers would start using Assault Carbines and 10mm SMGs, and Legionarries using Trail Carbines and Machete Gladius'. It would make sense at a certain level "The main players in this game are suiting up for the battle to come..." Then "in turn, the raider-esque minor factions, having raided faction caravans, begin to show a better range of armaments."
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CHARLODDE
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:34 pm

In other words, level scaling :P
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Nims
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:54 am

In other words, level scaling :P

No, level scaling made enemies had higher HP and weapons that made no sense. I meant "level" as in MQ progression. Should edit that in, but now that you mention it, why do stores (IE Gun Runners) have scaled inventory?
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Nana Samboy
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:53 pm

it would be better if ncr and legion level went up along with yours.
deathclaws and cazadores are perfect the way they are :)
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Joe Alvarado
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:14 am

Legion and NCR do scale to MQ stage.
Camp golf after the strip gets NCR elite rangers + brushguns, AMR's, sequoia's.
The 188 gets heavy troopers with LMG's.

CL you see higher ranks and better weapons.
All this is not level scalled rather MQ stages which the radio announces later on after some of the strip quests.
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DAVId MArtInez
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:22 am

Level scaling is rarely done right, better AI with adequate equipment, along with more and larger faction patrols, would be much better.
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Ron
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:00 am

Legion and NCR do scale to MQ stage.
Camp golf after the strip gets NCR elite rangers + brushguns, AMR's, sequoia's.
The 188 gets heavy troopers with LMG's.

CL you see higher ranks and better weapons.
All this is not level scalled rather MQ stages which the radio announces later on after some of the strip quests.

Yeah but the standard soldiers still use inadequate equipment, the regular soldiers should get upgraded equipment to help reinforce the new elite troops, I don't see how it would be hard to replace Service Rifles/CowboyRifles with AssaultCarbines/TrailCarbines when you are already sending valuable elite veterans, the former is probably cheaper.
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latrina
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:32 am

Yes, the 10mm, I would keep as the standard side arm.
Some do upgrade to snipers and marksman rifles, but you're right an assault carabine on most would not hurt before the end game.
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Darlene Delk
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:42 pm

all they need is better weapons i think, but another problem is that you don't have a lot of reason to actually travel around the map because there aren't really any random patrols or events, so the only place where the action is, is at outposts and bases, thats it, and thats not a lot of the map area, 90% of the map nothing ever happens, you can travel all around and hardly find anything to explore or fight, every cave is small, every building only takes like 30 seconds to explore, unless its a casino, FO3 had huge buildings to explore and fight in and it took a while to clear em out and it was easy to not even clear out the entire building and therefore having to come back later, capitol building, the roosovelt academy, lob enterprises, talon base, the chryslus building, vault tec HQ's, red racer factory, and national guard armory, so there a few problems with the game, nothing to explore, no enemy patrols or random events and too weakly armed enemies as we level up, its like 90% of the human enemies stay level 1 enemies.
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Irmacuba
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:33 am

i see more travelling merchants then any patrols which is kinda sad
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ijohnnny
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:49 am

i want random events like an Ncr patrol meeting a Legion patrol and either engaging in the battle or just watching.


or even better, a giant battle with legion vs NCR vs fiends. and yes i agree more bigger patrols plz.
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Judy Lynch
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:35 am

i want random events like an Ncr patrol meeting a Legion patrol and either engaging in the battle or just watching.


or even better, a giant battle with legion vs NCR vs fiends. and yes i agree more bigger patrols plz.

I've seen both of these happen before, a few times, but there are still far too few patrols.
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Jessica Stokes
 
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Post » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:13 pm

Try Black Mountain?


Yes I have and Black Mountain is fun and the the Mutants/Nightkin are well armed.
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cosmo valerga
 
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