OK, next time, could you NOT write a novel to my one paragraph? ill just reply in points:

- I read the refugees just before i posted: no where does it say that it was Dagon who claimed Mankar. sure, it can be inferred due to the oblivion story, but its never stated outright. in fact, it says nothing at all about anyone claiming Mankar, his mom just says that 'he' is coming and will bring death. he could very well refer to Mankar himself. your quotes have nothing to do with Dagon.

-this thread is about whether Ocato might be an Ayleid, not a evil guy or a woman or a secret muslim. you might have noticed that i hardly respond to your posts anymore because i know that the response will be a novel filled with hidden (and not so hidden) insults and will have little to do with the point at hand.

-the mer wanting to disassemble mundus is based on their religion and references the race as a whole. besides, the way the elves want to disassemble mundus is not by letting Dagon destroy the place: that would hardly get them back to the godhood which they miss so dearly. most elves dont actively try to kill the world anyways. its a religious thing.

-if you are happy with Ocato being good then i see no point in crackpot speculation.

- "it is generally an extrapoltion from (a variety) of facts" of which we have none, as previously stated.

-As it is it appears that once again you have not done your research: OK, i am pissed now. [censored] you. where do you see me not doing my research? do i get a fact wrong? do i forget some relationship? NO! all i do is disagree with your unsupported crackpot. if anything, it is you who failed to do your reasearch as shown by your unsuported claims of Mankar's and Dagon's pre-natal relationship.

-if i do get anything wrong about what you are saying it is not because "i stoop to claiming the oposite" but because your posts make no sense half the time.

-lastly, raggidman, you being an old fart doesnt make you smarter, or better, than me. or anyone else here. your age here on the forums or in real life dont mean poopies: there are plenty of younger and smarter people here. i frankly find your "agism" quite offensive, seeing as it has absolutely nothing to do with anything and just serves to put down 90% of the forum population. i suppose you need to find one thing that will make you seem better than people like Albides and Proweler, and since that aint your lore knowledge you chose your age. The fact that you get banned or shunned from every forum you join should have told you something by now about your behavior (namely that it is that of a child, not of a 40[?] year old man).

Lady N - Suggest you read The Previous post, reread The Refugees and absorbe the allusions therein, re-read my 3 previous posts and those of the peole I was referrin to and edit your own post an dyour general position with my blessing

i read the previous post. none of those quotes suggest that Dagon claimed Mankar. all his mom says is that "he" is coming, which probably refers to her child as he is literally coming out of her (as well as later coming to destroy cyrodiil, its a prophesy). in the quote of the scout "both" refers to Haymon and Kaltos Camoran, Dagon has nothing to do with it. the only place where Dagon could really be inferred (using knowledge from Oblivion) is the quote drucifer4 posted, and it is about Haymon, not Mankar.

thanks for the short post.

oh dear - please read the underlined bit - and there is now and edited post-script since it is clear that you want to fight this to a bitter end.

edit = given that Mankar ended up being given the short shaft I recon that he was sorta lacking in the presience department - so who is left? Dagon.

i already told you, i believe he refers to Mankar, not Haymon. hence the usurper being dead doesnt matter at all. a different posibility is that she was refering to Haymon: the Camoran Usurper died after she said the "he is coming," she may have been referring to him but, since she cant see the future, gotten it wrong (not very likely, but still a possibility). she could very well be a seer without Dagon's help though or just be predicting the future blindly (Mankar's father is Haymon, the Camorans already have strong ties to Dagon, it makes sence that mankar will turn out bad), though i dont think its likely. besides, i am not aware of the Daedra being able to get up inside someone womb and taint them evil. the only way i can see Dagon being connected to Mankar from an early is through upbringing, as we know that the Camorans had ties with Dagon. Anyhow, it never says that there is anyone controlling her, much less that it is Dagon. you are basing your assumption not on the text but on your knowledge of the Oblivion MQ.

Lukar clearly believes she called out yet again after he and she knew Haymon was dead. And as you like to say in the absence of other info, in this case I am inclined to go with his belief - he was there, eye-witnes testimony etc.

My feeling is that she is either talking of or to her unborn child.

Daedra influencing the unborn? Old Lore and maybe out of fashion now - if one of the old guard reads this they might be able to point you to the references. You note this is not that they are necessarily in years older than you - just older in years on the Forums and therefore privy to the tens of thousands of posts we all made before you joined up. Sorry if you missed out on that but gamesas archived it all or wiped it an dalso wiped our saved material too = one reason that I have made quite a few mistakes in looking at old lore.

:o Get up in someone's womb??? Really LN that is too ????? sweet ??? - words fail. How about simple mind reading as performed by a Daedric Prince? If the paltry demi-god Dagoth Ur could invade people's heads I shudder to think what a Daedric Prince is capable in the realms of telepathy.

I sorta feel that either the author of this is basing it on knowledge of the Oblivion MQ or the MQ has been partly based around this - whichever was written first as they seem to be delightfully in tune. Either way it makes sense and holds true.

edit not said yet Dagon was controlling HER - ty for the excellent thought - more that he definitely is influencing/controlling Mankar all the way

Maybe you should do some work and "point her to the references" yourself. Your wall of words are worthless unless you can back them up.

...what? your claim is that Mankar was tied to Dagon, not his mom, so he would have to be inside her to be tied to him. i dont get how thats "????? sweet," unless it was Dagon who knocked her up in the first place, in which case that is a whole different ball game entirely. well have to call Kikaimegami to fill us in on that. At any rate, Dagoth Ur and the Daedra are totally different entities with totally different powers. again, i reapeat, it is never implied, much less stated, that Kaalys and/or Mankar is being controlled/telepathed by anyone at the time of the birth. i would be much more inclined to believe this inference if it was supported by something other then your interpretation of one world.
:spotted owl:
I have read the important threads. important information tends to get preserved or re-told anyhow, most of what was lost is meaningless drivel like this we are doing here. i suggest you stop arguing a point that has very little (if any) support and get back to the topic at hand, which is if ocato is a secret ayleid

he is secretly an ayliad, there is no documentation that bluntly states that his parents were altimer, and his skin is golden, I know you say that this is because of the OB dressup doll styl of making your charcter, but the DEV's hand crafted evry NPC and why would they make on Altimer gold and none of the other ones look remotly close to him. It is stated that Ayliads looked like Altimer but were more tan... so, well. Why can't Occato be an Ayliad? There is no evidence for or against, so evrything any of us say is pure speculation and can't be proven wrong or right.

You're right in that there is no outright evidence saying he is or isn't Ayleid, but it's just much more probable he isn't.

The world you are looking for is predesignated. Mankar was predesignated to become Dagons Pawn and his mother was having prophetic visions of it. Nothing however in the refugees indicates that Dagon personally had anything to do with that.

Seems to me you are grasping at imaginary straws.



The burden of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claims. You have to show that Ocato of First Hold is not an Altmer as can be assumed from his name.

This will all be found out in TES V. If it is true, I will be making a thread in TES V forum that will be for the soul purpose of rubbing it into everyone's faces, and if not, well, I'm the raining king of dum asses

You say that as if it's the rapture.

i dont think bethesda cares a spotted owl if Ocato is Ayleid or not :rolleyes:

Hell yeah. They probably won't say jack crap about it. I doubt they're even thinking about it.

Actually LN that was your claim. I responded ... sweet ... to your idea - I assumed that you were implying a cosy relationship - were you not? Now my idea was that telepathy was likely and viable in the circumstances. Do you believe that Dagon would have to stick his head into the mother's womb to communicate telepathically?

So Dagoth Ur and Dagon are totally different entities? My, what a revelation. But then since mind control etc are fairly basic spells ... and The Tribunal too claimed to communicate Telepathically ... and Azura as well - or didn't you play Morrowind? Please come up with some better excuses.

Truth is that if I said the earth is a planet circling the star the English speaking peoples of the world call Sol you would look for a way to deny that, and if anyone else turned up in support of you you would then claim I had said the opposite. We have all read your thread on til - and it has been posted on another website as Giskard said he would do. You know, the one where you and your pals get together and ask for assistance - given the purpose of the thread which you yourself make abundantly clear in the second page Ithink? It seems that you are gathered there to diss others and arrange to have a go at them, troll-baiting, flame baiting, and flaming those you do not like on ESF? You have brought yourselves into disrepute.

that's an interesting word, predesignated. It could be a sensitivity on the part of the mother to that sort of 'momentum' - and though I appreciate your suggestion it's not quite what I had in mind previously. Foreshadowed is not quite the meaning either but I used that word with qualifier because it has a certain tone?

However, since you have suggested it, and there are many ways to skin a cat, then the force of a predesignation by a being as brutal (and possibly desperate) as Dagon has shown himself to be could indeed have communicated to the mother and been used to propell her headlong along the path that brings Mankar to the Mythic Dawn. I do not feel that the mother is otherwise portrayed as a psychically 'gifted' individual.

However I do feel that Dagon would still have concentrated that force in the baby - Mankar because Mankar is the true conduit of that force and the intended receptacle. Yes, it could be that Dagon is influencing her in that way. Hence my feeling is that his relatonship with Mankar has to be altogether more intimate than with the mother - necessarily so.


It is possible that Occato was a throwback - or that he had all sorts of mixes in his ancient lineage. However all i have read about The Ayleids recently suggests that either they hid out in the forests (and then you would have to show where and even explain why they were not discovered) or they blended into the base population. Certainly the fact that the Ayleids do not show as a distinct race may be telling given that it's all about a 'supposed' group of Ayleids called the Mythic Dawn. Well unless Haymon Camoran was Ayleid even the Mythic Dawn leader was not Ayleid.

Bung up links to pics of Mankar and other Mythic Dawn members here if you like - that would be relevant.

Thing is if the Mythic dawn had no Ayleid membership it is likely that the whole Ayleid connection is a total fraud an dMythic Dawn was a bunch of loony cultists determined to play at being something they had no real knowledge of.

In that light it would be ironic and very satisfying if Occato was a real Ayelied who opposed them full-heartedly because he knew them for fakes and (devils advocate to counter own earlier argument) they were bringing the hidden remnants of his people into disrepute. Also that might explain something of his character and manner that various players clearly have reacted to = a hidden agenda. But in that case maybe not an agenda that is intended to harm the Empire?

Good luck with your 'quest' and don't let the so and sos get you down.

that is the claim i was responding too. "before his birth" = in uterus. if dagon was telepathing the mother than it is she he would have a connection to, not mankar.


yes, i would, because we call it the "sun". lol. anyhow, no i woudnt, but your claim is not equivalent to that. your claim is equivalent to the National Treasure movies. besides, no one is actually supporting you, youre on your own here.


my my, you say it like we care. we dont get to gather and ask for assistance, or arranging to have a go at people, we get together to express our feelings about people like you in an environment free from oppressive rules and people like you. we cant say what we want to say here so we say it there. as was said by proweler: we are people and we need to express our opinions. dont tell me you havent done the same, because i have quotes on the ready of you doing the same. im pretty sure those people know what we think of them without the thread

[edit] what does my join date location etc. have to do with anything? ill have you know i have been on this forum since 02, though under a different name.

You are claiming that you were younger than age 13 when you joined these forums?



When you learn to quote others honestly then discourse may be possible - but since you are determined to lie about what has been said here - don't waste my time.

lie? just go back and read your old posts, i didnt alter a thing. thats what you said, and thats what were arguing about. if you no longer believe that original claim then just say so, dont claim that im lying.

yes, i was younger than 13.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Image:High_Chancellor_Ocato.jpg looks like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Image:OB-NPC-Calindil.jpg http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Image:Henantier.jpg to me. :shrug: I don't see any reason why he should be an Alyeid. As for Beth "custom" crafting gevery NPC. :lmao: They probably just did a random face gen and did some fiddling around after that.

As to the whole Dagon mucking about with babies -- come on, that's more like something sneaky Mephala would do, if she was in to that sort of thing. I don't think Daedric Princes have that much power, otherwise they'd be reaping little baby followers left and right -- OMG, is that why there are no children in Cyrodiil?!

Yeah, anyway, maybe there is telepathy (such as the Tribunal), but that can be different than actual 'mind control'... :shrug:

Anyway, I don't intend on getting drawn in to the argument, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents pence farthings belly button lint and paper clip. :bolt:

Alright. The only connection, if it could be called so, I see to Mehrunes Dagon is: He is coming. He is coming, and he will bring death. He will destroy all.
This is said by a refugee, referring to what Kaalys kept saying. Since Mehrunes Dagon is the Daedric Prince of Destruction (among other things) she may be refferring to him coming to "destroy all". Other than this I see no connection to Dagon at all.

lol - maybe baybee :lmao:

ty for the pics. Assumin the color is in-game accurate then those pics tend to support VickyD's assertion if his description of the Ayelied colouring is correct.

Let's see
The Tribunal used telepathy or distance speaking - whatever - between themselves - note Vivec and his wife Almalexia conversing ...

Dagoth Ur used it to 'influence' the sleepers ... Poisonsong etc

Azura used it to create the Dream messages that the Nerevarine experienced = 'Wake up - Wake up - you were having a bad dream! Shh here come the guards.' and thanks for that to my old fiend and fellow prisoner now called by many ST Jube.

Maybe there are loads of other instances that the all knowing Lady N could bring up if she wanted to argue that Gods do have such powers ... but she are just making trouble as usual

Oh dear - seems Dagon is the only God/Prince who is incapable of telepathy in Tamriel!

sweet, I'm not crazy

Actually, from the pics, the colouring looks the same. :shrug: He's Altmer; so sayeth the CS.

CS?