what does Ocato have to do with the Usurper?

I don't believe Ocato is an Aylied. I would be great, because I think it's time for an evil empire. one that will last for a long time.

But as for Ocato. Oblivion (and american games in gerneral it seems) usually has the Good-Guy/Bad-Guy stuff to it. Mehrunes Dagon is clearly the badguy. and Team Cyrodiil(Martin, Jauffre, Baurus, Ocato etc) is obviously the good guys.
Also I wouldn't want Ocato as an evil aylied overlord, he simply to much of a pantywaist, pushover, sissy and a wimp.

Until further evidence comes up there is not enough to determine if he is or is not an Ayelid. Until such evidence or extensive research comes forth my opinion is that Ocato's heritage is Ayelid.

This thread is both questioning and speculatory.

It's about what is likely

If you read the past couple of pages you might note that people are questioning Occato's motives and asking whether he might have been setting the whole thing up or manipulating it for his own ambition or other motives. So I offered a possible link.

According to the way Ob portrays the Aylids they are no longer a distince race - but families may have memories.

The main regions with which the Aylied remnant are supposed to have gone to ground are Cyrodiil, Summerset Isle and Valenwood

Occato is involved in the Gates business

Mankar Cameron is too

Mankar's father was Haymon Cameron - read the Refugees

For those who were trying to see Occato as a bad guy and a manipulator you have to think in Elven lifetimes and Occato would have likely been around when Haymon was and Haymon was part of a progression that led to the Oblivion Crisis.

In the refugees Haynon's former scout refers to haymon's former Master having made the conquest of Valenwood so speedy and his absence being the root cause for the long war in Hammerfell.

The scout might be referring to the Bosmer Lord that Haymon was employed by .. or a 'Power'/God/Daedra ... but if you wanted to fit Occato into that timeline, then one useful place to connect things up and infer that Occato is more than he seems then interpret the Master the scout refers to as Occato. This is not obligatory and not sure I like that, though it's a possibility.

If Occato is really a good guy then this is not likely. my post was for those speculating on the bad guy stuff.

golden skin, man. it creeps me out.

Sorry, I mistook it with High Rock... but still some of them could go to Summerset.

edit: typo

your reasoning has no basis. Mankar Camoran is opening gates to Oblivion and is in service to Dagon, Ocato is, according to all information we have, a loyal servant of the empire and is defending Cyrodiil from the invasion. We have no reson to asume Ocato was alive then, or would have a reason to conquer tamriel. its sort of like saying that because i was around on these forums when the ocean mod died, and because i am a modder, i must have caused its death. anyhow, were deep of topic.


...and your speculation aint.

Dagon is the pawn really, or http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=796134&view=findpost&p=11571869.

Yeah... But, whose pawn?

All of the Alt/dmer?

no, I believe that Mancar believed in his mind that Dagon was his pawn, but in reality, Mancar was the pawn. And I am pretty sure that it has been established that Mancar Cameron was not an Ayliad and what would the Altimer race as a whole want with the daedric prince of distruction? The one that I think could be pulling strings upstairs, even higher than dagon, is Occato

Oh for the love of God, read Nazz's link.

Ah, I see. Sorry for my n00bishnes.

Ah, I see. Sorry for my n00bishnes, so does this basicly mean that these people believe that they must destroy the world in order to get heaven? But I'm not sure that Cameron had this in mind, sence he was talking about living in the new world that his master would create, or was this one big act to fool his followers into joining him and the rest of the mythic dawn actualy had no idea that they were trying to destroy the world, or could the new world that the mythic dawn were talking about actualy be the afterlife?

my mind is bottled

Sorry, I'm just cranky and should've expanded on that post actually. Yes, they're trying to destroy the current world and its limitations to achieve what they believe is something greater.

:sits in corner of the room and listens to conversation quietly: sense I don't really know much about this subject and I'm just making my self look like a fool blurting out ideas without any logic, I'll let you guys go on and I'll just listen

Dun worry. If you have questions ask. But, it's nice just to read some enlightening posts and think about it. I'm gonna doing that too.

yah, you guys just talk it up. If I have a question or something dumb to say I'll speak up

Well if you bothered to read the thread you might have noted the bit where I noted the relationship between Mankar and Dagon - and if you read The Refugees you might also note that Dagon claimed Mankar before his birth.

Yes I realised that Occato is portrayed as a 'goodie' in Oblivion (re the ES stuff - not going into other irrelevancies of yours that are all at sea) and that awareness is built into my posts ...

What those posts are dealing with here is some peoples' expressed dislike of Occato and their mistrust of his motives - which they are entitled to express, right?

This whole thread is about what Occato 'MIGHT BE' - geddit? So - just to belabour the point (because clearly you enjoy that sooo muuch as you keep respondin to my posts) and you are either hard of comprehension where my posts are concerned or ... speculation ... what I am sayin in those posts in this thread to which you have responded is that if Occato is later portrayed as a bad guy the logic-train indicated in my next post would be more likely than that he is an Ayelied.

Now I could just say to the guys they're wrong - but because I believe they are genuine contributors to this Forum Land N and do not like to heavy people like that when they are obviously fascinated by a subject I chose to offer an alternative.

I guess you sorta missed young MK's Christmas greets and the rest of that thread. You know the posts where there is alla that speculation on the Aldmer bein out to dissassemble the Mundus. 'course the posters in that thread do not make a distinction between Aldmer and Altmer and other 'modern' elven types ... which might lead one to sorta assume that because the 'Ancient' Mer wanted or believed a thing modern mer also want or believe the same thing? - at least in part.

For my own part I am totally happy with Occato being a good guy as I have not until this thread encoutered anything that would contradict that from his actions.

However if that Christmas Lore thread holds true, then belief that the Almeri as a whole may wish to undo the mundus holds true an so then one has to allow for the possibility that any NPC mer, however benign in appearance, general manner and actions, might have deeper motives that are not so friendly from a human point of view.

You might also therefore apply the Loreful principal - it is a small multi-comos and everything that goes around comes around - and there is that wonderful stuff about the way everything connects - if you bothered to make the connection with that thread.

Speculation is not a stating that a thing is so - it is generally an extrapoltion from (a variety) of facts ... and usually a darn sight more useful and informational than a dog-in-the-manger; this is where it is; and nothing and nobody is going anywhere; without my say so - and nah-nah,nah you are wrong type attitude.

As it is it appears that once again you have not done your research or you can't or have no intention of refuting the entire logic chain sensibly and in detail and that includes allowing for the fact that this is a reply to several other posts previously, you're sorta missing the point and outta line. Ahh right - you can't refute the entire logic chain because there is only one piece of new speculation there and that is not in itself contradictory of the deeper Lore as it is posted as a speculation and has other Lore that is supportive. See above. So you stoop to claiming that I had claimed the opposite of the actual content of my post - see above.

Larstly Lady N - lest you wish to pose any further claims that this is all beyond me - I have been speculatin for some decades on the way the the ancient Chinese philosposophers achieved a world-view that is supportive of modern scientific theory some thousands of years ago - I may have posted on that subject on these Forums before you joined ... when I was younger I read a fascinatin book from one of my father's libraries published by the Cambridge University Press a small but authoriatative set of encyclopaedias that included a description of the I Ching. The authors noted there are two tri-grams in that structure that are described by 'scholars' as atomic hexagrams = not bad for 3,500yrs ago eh? And the I Ching is still in print today, though some translations are rather more reliable than others. Rather like some Chinese-English dictionaries are rather more reliable than others. Essentially, though I may and do make mistakes, I am and have been a serious contibuter to this Forum for even longer than the esteemed Luagar2 (I beat him by a month ). Myself I look at the content of the posts of these new members and enjoy their creativity - sometimes with awe.

Thankin you for the gift of your precious time and the benefit of your massive erudition -

Backtracking a few posts, the "Ald/altmeri" endeavour at uncoiling the Dragon is being undertaken by whome, exactly?

We've heard of "the Beautiful", but only for about a sentance.

The Beautiful wouldn't know.

Mankar Camoran was Dagon's pawn since before his birth - read The Refugees (a nice little story that, and comprehensible) so there is no knowing just what he thought - and so I would not trust what he says either But read on ...

The Leaping Demon King tale suggests that Dagon believes he must do just that - destroy the world to be free I think. And the Ayelieds also had a belief that they had to break apart the world to put things back as they were before Lorkhan (and poss the Leaping Demon) created/reformed the mundus into it's current structure. But that does not mean that modern day mer have to be thinking in the same direction.

Our delight in things ancient frequently causes us to talk about past beliefs as if they have to be current and that is not necessarily always the case. This is further complicated by the extreme longevity of the mer and beings such as the Tribunal and Dagon. I reckon one reason Dagon wants to get away is that the ephemerality of man and the beast races gives him a headache even while they present such delicious opportunities to further his plans.

Just consider one thing among all this talk of mer wanting to destroy the mundus - it was mer who built the towers that apparently hold things together.

Bottled eh? What does it wholesale at?

balg, its only worth a penny :stare:

If you dont mind me asking, where in The Refugees does it say or imply this? If you could point it out to me it would be much appreciated.

Quite frankly it doesn't say or imply that anywhere in the book. The only thing that could possibly come close is:



It doesn't pertain to Mankar at all, but it could imply that Mehrunes Dagon (or anyone really, since we don't know the full extent of just how involved MD was with The Usurper) was Haymon Camoran's master.

Appreciate your quote is correct drucifer4 - I will just go get the other quotes from The refugees where the Bosmer Girl screams out several things etc - you really have to read the entire story carefully though because the references are spread through the story bu tI think you may agree that there may be a bit more to this tale.

here is the linky: http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/refugees.shtml

Please note that the Bosmer girl is talking about Mankar Camoran her son who she is birthing - that is made clear later in this story - and prophetic words uttered during a birth usu have great power ... see below too *

And I will edit in a few quotes now:





It could be your quote was referring to Dagon drucifer4 - could also refer to this guy Camoran Kaltos, who was his master - and there is another candidate - less likely and requires a lot of 'reaching'.

here you might assume that th eBosmer woman is addressing Mankar and that she refers to the coming of her lover Haymon ...



I have underlined the specific referance that puts all the story into place. * I believe this is not the first time that a mother has known about a Daedric Prince 'interfering' with her unborn child?

Hope this answer's your and BohrIII's points?

edit: I feel that this is such a strong, and in the light of our current knowledge obvious link, that there is no way you can deny there is a power at work within Kaalys. People talk about foreshadowing - a very fanciful word that may not apply - but this has that feel. Unless Kaalys is precient (then she would be described as a seer or mage or wise one) there has to be another force at work. Dagon is the obvious choice. She sees the bllod to come because Dagon is there within her messing with her baby and she can feel the dreams of blood and violence to come in Dagon's mind - perhaps through her link with Mankar.

It's too obvious and to powerful to brush aside once you look at it in those terms. Heh - maybe the writer was an unknowing conduit too