Original Thread: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1240218-oct-11-ign-article-skyrim-the-rpg-for-the-rest-of-us/


I find it hilarious that for the author of that article, a game like WoW is what defines "RPG", with all the focus on stats and gear. The author basically says "Despite Skyrim being a RPG, it is actually immersive!". That's the world turned around! Immersion is the number one factor that makes a game a RPG, at least for me it is. I blame all those MMORPG's that are actually MMOG's for this misguided way of thinking.

I don't even know what to say to that. I think the guy who wrote that needs a new job.

EDIT: I realised as soon as I submitted that that was having something to say,

Immersion is not the number one factor of what makes an RPG...many different game genres can be very immersive.

egads, what happened? did IGN get bought out by FOX News or something?

Yeah, I mean it the other way around... Bad choice of words. I mean that it is vital for a game to be immersive if it wants to be a RPG.

That makes more sense?

Wrong. Character definition and progression defines an RPG... and you can't have either without stats/numbers.

KillerGymSox
@DCDeacon @Bethblog @ign I am confused, are they backtracking for the dark souls face eating comment?

DCDeacon Pete Hines
@KillerGymSox Who knows?


lol!

Character definition sure, but progression in terms of stats no. You don't necessarily need stats/numbers to have your character progress in a story.

You can progress in a story in an adventure game, or an action-adventure game. Hell, you can even make choices that influence the outcome of the story.

An RPG doesn't even need a story to be an RPG. Look at Mount & Blade.

I don't know whether to be offended or pleased.

For me RPG are indeed more immersive than other genres. It is because they allow a certain extra amount of freedom. Not just the freedom to decide how your character progresses and what he wears but also (to some degree) where you are going.

I especially love the opening hours of a traditional RPG. You're in a small hamlet and just wondering around doing quests for the villagers outside of the walls. Than you can backtrack at any time and compleet quests. It is this sense of freedom, of being in a believable world. Elder Scrolls does this better than any other RPG franchise. Having said that, this level of freedom can also be found in some non-RPG such as Red Dead Redemption. However in general RPG are sooner to include this kind of freedom, thus it is associated with RPG.

On this note I would also like to add that this si exacrly the reason why I dont like modern Bioware RPG. ME2 and DA2 both missed this feeling of a town connected to an outside area and the freedo mto return at any time. This picture (http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/Ronnet2/Gamedesign.jpg) explains it the best. In DA2 starting a quest immediatly transports you to a linear combat zone compleetly destroying the believability and charm of the game. You can't return to the city area until you finish the quests thus freedom is gone. I would rather play a non-RPG by Rockstar than a RPG from Bioware even though I love RPG.

You can't have a true RPG without a story. Playing a role requires a story, a world, choices etc. Not just stats. Actually it doesn't require stats at all...it requires imagination and immersion.

There are several sub-genres under RPG...read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

i believe progression is being awarded and feeling that you're getting stronger

It requires the ingredients to make a story. Mount & Blade offers the tools to create your own background and motivations to join the fights. There are also side quests but they are there just to spice things up. I don't think a RPG needs to have a set story, I would still consider Skyrim a RPG if there was no main quest and the guilds only had standalone quests and no storyline.

Wrong.

Here, have some delicious copy paste with a few edits from a post I made a few weeks back.

RPG's have little to do with stats. Let's look at what an RPG is.

An RPG as letters that make up the acronym suggest is a game where you role play. Now what is role playing ? Put simply role playing is when you take upon yourself the role of a character and you act accordingly outside of a script. So not to be confused with acting where you do the same thing, that is take upon yourself the role of a character, the main difference is that when you act you are doing it by a script but when you role play you are doing it freestyle you could say.

So what would make a game a "role playing game" ? If all it takes is to take upon the role of a character and act according to it then one could say any game is a role playing game as most games put you in some one role and then you have freedom to express said role, however that is not quite correct. A role playing game needs to give you freedom over 'what' role you take upon yourself, so any game that puts you into a specific main character is not an RPG, it also has to give you the freedom to make original characters, so you could not call Tekken an RPG just because you can choose between a few previously made characters, also a role playing game needs to give you ways to differentiate one character from another, so it's not enough to say "I can make any kind of character in WoW, so it must be an RPG", you have to be able to follow your characters personal morals throughout the game, pick sides and betray sides if desired.

Then there is the matter of what makes a "good RPG", a "good RPG" is what we call a game that allows you more freedom to express your character than other games. This is why D&D for example and some other alike tabletop games are still considered the top of the ladder for RPG′s because in said games you have a human DM that can grant you total freedom over your actions where as any computer game that is designed cannot be designed with such freedom because the required data for having near infinite options would be, well, near infinite, not to mention it would take too much time to design such a game that it would simply not be feasible nor worth the money.

This doesn't mean all computer RPG′s are bad, they just get a section of their own, and the way to see if an RPG is a good RPG or not is simply to consider how much freedom of expression you have in the game. If two RPG's have two similar quests for example and one of them allows you to stay loyal to the quest giver or to betray him for whoever is working against the quest giver, and the other game adds a third option to betray them both for your own interests, then that is an example (granted not a very good one) of one game having more freedom of character personality expression than the other, thus making the later RPG a better RPG than the first one.

Now where do stats and the combat system come into all of this ? Well quite frankly they have very little to do with it all. You can have tools that aid you in expressing your character, like if you were role playing in real life you could have pads to make the character you are playing look a little more buff than you are IRL, but those pads don't make up the role, it's the character decisions and actions that make up the role. Stats and how the combat system works are only there to compliment the role play by helping you mark your character as "smart" or "strong" or "accurate", but in no way does having stats completely define if it is a good RPG or not and most certainly it does not define if it is an RPG overall.


While I don't agree with the general attitude of the article (it seems to suggest Skyrim will just be a pure fast paced action game without all of the 'boring stuff') I can't say he's saying Skyrim won't be an RPG, and mount and blade is not an RPG, far from it.

As far as I'm concerned, a RPG is about me creating an avatar that will evolve in an open world doing what I tell him to do, not what a story tells me to. I love a good story like anyone else, I just don't think a strong story alone is what makes a great RPG.

I think the link to mount and blade is quite good: here is what you have and can do, now go build your story/character.

Wrong on both points.

You absolutely can have an RPG without a story. There are plenty of them out there - Mount & Blade is just one example. And don't give me that "true" RPG crap. An RPG is an RPG.

You cannot, however, have an RPG without stats. (by RPG, I mean roleplaying video-game. I'm well aware that you can substitute stats with your own imagination in tabletob RPGs). Once you take the stats away, it becomes an adventure game or an action-adventure game.

By loose definition, you are roleplaying in an adventure game. You may assume the role of a character, progress through a storyline making choices along the way, interact with NPCs and make dialogue choices, explore a gameworld, collect items, etc. But until you use stats to define the character you're playing as, it cannot be considered an RPG.

If role playing was all about stats we'd simply call it SDG (stats distributing game) or something like that, however role playing is all about the actual act of role playing, not the act of distributing your stats but the actual role playing itself. Post 15 should explain it in more detail.

... so wrong... so misinformed...

Firstly, you're confusing the RPG game genre with the literal definition of roleplaying. You can assume the role of a character and make choices in many games - notably adventure games.

Read this quote about the difference between an RPG and an Adventure game. You might learn something.



Secondly, you're wrong in your assumption that an RPG cannot have pre-set or pre-made characters. As long as the character you're playing as is properly defined, it doesn't matter whether you create them or the developer does.

RPGs have always at their heart, been about player progression vs the campaign world and each individual encounter crafted to challenge the player.

Whether that is through quests, killing, looting or what have you, that is the heart of it. A story is merely another vehicle for which our characters can potentially advance through.

I must be pretty old because in my time an adventure game was a game heavilly involved in puzzle solving, not a term to desctribe an rpg without stats. If we're describing "action-adventure" then an action adventure can easilly be an rpg since action adventure is one heck of a broad term.

Again, by literal definition you can roleplay in an adventure game or an action-adventure game. The only real difference between many adventure games and RPGs is the use of stats to define characters and allow for progression. So while the two genres may share many qualities, like playing the role of a character, progressing through an interactive storyline, interacting with NPCs, exploring a gameworld, making choices, finding items, etc, it's only the use of stats for character definition that can be considered a truly essential/defining feature of an RPG.

I never liked the term RPG in the first place. It's just too broad to specify what a game is. The 'Role Play' aspect is something you can stick to any game. People in the industry can't even find consensus on what a RPG is as a definition. Hence the different takes on the genre. :confused:

You need stats in an RPG. How else can you define your character? I can't speak for action RPGs, but for cRPGs the actions of your character defined through stats (otherwise, player skill would come into play) was what made the games RPGs. See Arcanum, Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Daggerfall, Ultima, Baldur's Gate (awesome game, although it's also quite close to an adventure game IMO), Diablo (more of a dungeon crawler than a classical RPG, but dungeon crawlers helped pave the way to RPGs such as Arcanum and Fallout), Vampire Masquerade Bloodlines etc, these are some games off the top of my head.

The "imagination" argument is referring to a literal definition of 'role playing', found usually in sandbox games. That is not enough to determine an RPG since using your imagination you can turn any game into anything you want - but we're solely discussing the game on what it is, not what a person wants it to be (since then there would be no way of debating the issue).

Really, a wikipedia quote ? Wikipedia doesn't get everything right. Just because you have point management an adventure game doesn't turn into an RPG. You wouldn't call Okami an RPG would you ? And there is a reason role-playing games were called role-playing games it's because they allow you to role-play, they are games who supplement your ability to role-play a character by giving it tools and encounters to allow the player to express the personality of the character they are playing. Yes stats do help you define the character but only in the same way props would allow you to define a character in live action role playing (LARP), putting on a suit that makes you look buff that has a sticker on it saying "he has 18 strength!" doesn't tell people about the kind of character you are playing, it doesn't tell them what kind of a role you are acting out, it only tells them that your character is really strong.

I don't think knowing how to define an RPG marks me as misinformed, rather informed.

And I'm not wrong about games that give you a predetermined characters not being RPG's. Having a predetermined character personality strips you of the very freedom of playing the character after your head. Yes you don't have to make the character for a game to be an RPG but if the character is written in stone and you can't control what it does all the time then it's not an RPG, to take a fictional example the moment a cut-scene decides to make your bunny loving barbarian set a bunny on fire before catapulting it into the enemy keep is the moment you realize you have no choice in what kind of a person your character is.