Odd NPC Behavior : IV

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:10 pm

I'm noticing some odd NPC behavior in my game. An enemy will rush towards me, crowd against me, but not attack. They get right up next to me, as if to push against me, but then they don't swing their weapon. They just keep pushing.

Meanwhile, I beat the crap out of them quite easily. Sometimes they never swing at me at all. Two NPCs that I've noticed doing this are: the dark elf who is the First Mate on the Pirate Ship in the Imperial City Harbor and two of the roadside bandits (You're money or your life...)

My load order, if this helps:

Spoiler

Oblivion.esm
GTAesgaard_2.esm
Windfall.esm
TR_OoT_Main.esm
Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm
Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm
Cobl Main.esm
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm
Mart's Monster Mod.esm
Enhanced Daedric Invasion.esm
TamrielTravellers.esm
FCOM_Convergence.esm
Armamentarium.esm
Artifacts.esm
Kvatch Rebuilt.esm
Better Cities Resources.esm
Progress.esm
StaticAlchemyMod.esm
Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
DLCShiveringIsles.esp
Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp
Better Cities .esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp
Francesco's Dark Seducer Weapons Patch.esp
FCOM_Francescos.esp
FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp
FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp
Fran Armor Add-on.esp
Fran_Lv30Item_Maltz.esp
Atmospheric Loading Screens - Original Text.esp
oc_darker_nights.esp
WindowLightingSystem.esp
ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp
FF_Real_Thirst.esp
TFF_Races_Base_RSM.esp
Acolyte_Of_Kynareth_HGEC.esp
Adonnays Classical Weaponry.esp
Adonnays Elven Weaponry.esp
ArchersDesire2.esp
EY_AoD.esp
Slof's Bracelet Collection.esp
Slof's Bracelets & Rings.esp
VA_HonamiDaito.esp
VA_UniqueKatana1.esp
UFF & ROBERT Noviere's Gray Fox Armor.esp
UFF Blood Ice.esp
UFF & RM Black Exnem Warrior Armor.esp
UFF & ROBERT Cold Steel.esp
Blackmarsh_Witch_HGEC_Clothing.esp
UFF - Celtic Witch Robes.esp
Royal Ranger Armor.esp
TFF_Armor_Base.esp
TFF_Clothing_Base.esp
UFF RM Dark Rider Armor.esp
UFF Black Courtesan Dress.esp
HGEC Witch Queen Ritual Robe.esp
UFF & RM Black Templar Armor.esp
UFF Dragonbone Armor Set.esp
UFF & RM Black Plate Armor.esp
UFF & RM Gold and Silver Daedric Armor.esp
UFF & RM Dark Daedric Armor.esp
UFF & RM Morrigan Armor.esp
UFF & RM Vermillion and Silverthorn Robes.esp
UFF_Unrepetant_Archer.esp
UFF_Jen‚es_Honor.esp
UFF RM Ranger Armor.esp
KDCircletsOOOOptimized - NPC Equip.esp
FCOM_KDCircletsOOOOptimizedNPCEquip.esp
Cobl Glue.esp
Cobl Si.esp
FF_Real_Thirst, Cobl.esp
OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp
FCOM_Cobl.esp
Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp
FCOM_BobsArmory.esp
Loth's Blunt Weapons for Npcs.esp
FCOM_LothsBluntWeapons.esp
Oblivion WarCry EV.esp
FCOM_WarCry.esp
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
ArmamentariumArtifacts.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp
FCOM_Convergence.esp
FCOM_EntropicOrderRebalance.esp
FCOM_RealSwords.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - No Swarms.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - No Slimes.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - No Werewolves.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - No Beholdens.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Dungeons of MMM.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Slof Horses Complete.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Runeskulls Loot G&GD.esp
TamrielTravellers4000.esp
TamrielTravellersItemsCobl.esp
FCOM_TamrielTravelers.esp
FCOM_DiverseGuardUnity.esp
FCOM_BobsGuardUnity.esp
FCOM_Archery.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp
ArmamentariumLL4OOO.esp
ArmamentariumLLMagicOOO.esp
KDCircletsOOOOptimized - Loot Only.esp
OOO-WaterFish.esp
Castle Ravenpride.esp
Ivellon.esp
Akiviri Imports MOBS.esp
Syntyche's Cavern.esp
AkaviriSamuraiShop.esp
Artifacts.esp
Artifacts - ArmaCompleteAddon.esp
Better Benirus Manor.esp
GTAesgaard.esp
GTAesgaard_2.esp
Gates To Aesgaard 2 Delayer.esp
Guardians of the Nine - Akatosh Chantry.esp
Kvatch Rebuilt.esp
Kvatch Rebuilt - Leveled Guards - FCOM.esp
Malevolent.esp
Slof's Oblivion Goth Shop.esp
The Ayleid Steps.esp
TR_Stirk.esp
Stirk_Compatibility_Patch.esp
VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp
VHBloodlines 1.2.esp
Windfall.esp
za_bankmod.esp
Knights.esp
Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp
TOTF.esp
TOTF Delayer.esp
RTT.esp
The Lost Spires.esp
Blood&Mud.esp
The Mystery of the Dulan cult.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp
FCOM_Blood&Mud.esp
FCOM_Knights.esp
FCOM_Ruin.esp
FCOM_DulanCult.esp
Enhanced Daedric Invasion.esp
FCOM_EnhancedDaedricInvasion.esp
bartholm.esp
FCOM_UnofficialFranArmorAddon.esp
Harvest [Flora].esp
Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp
Bag of Holding.esp
DS Less Predictable Respawn.esp
DBWGP.esp
Salmo the Baker, Cobl.esp
RealisticFatigue.esp
RealSleepExtended.esp
Gather Ye Rosebuds.esp
bgMagicEV.esp
SupremeMagicka.esp
SM_ShiveringIsles.esp
SM_OOO.esp
SM_MMM.esp
SM_COBL.esp
SM_UnlockSpells.esp
SM_Scrolls.esp
SM_SigilStone.esp
attack and hide medium v2.1.esp
nGCD.esp
ProgressMBSP.esp
ProgressSBSP.esp
ProgressRBSP.esp
ProgressRacial.esp
ProgressArmorer.esp
immersive_caves_auto.esp
Dark Dungeons.esp
Dark Dungeons - SI.esp
TFF_Races_Base.esp
BP_Roberts_BR_Hair.esp
bgMagicSpellTomes_for_WryeBash.esp
bgMagicEVPaperChase.esp
Willful Resistance.esp
Better Cities - Full City Defences.esp
Better Cities Full - B&M Edition.esp
Better Cities - Ruined Tail's Tale.esp
Better Cities - Tears of the Fiend.esp
Better Cities - No LEYAWIIN Flooding.esp
Better Cities - VHBloodlines.esp
Better Cities - VWD of the IC.esp
Better Cities Full - B&M Edition FPS Patch.esp
Better Imperial City.esp
Better Imperial City FPS Patch.esp
Better Cities - COBL.esp
[GFX]_Initial_Glow-all.esp
[GFX]_Initial_Glow-self.esp
Real Hunger, Cobl.esp
TuStartingOptions_01.esp
Bashed Patch, 0.esp
Streamline 3.1.esp

Anyone else encounter this behavior and/or know how to fix it?

Thanks.

~ Dani ~

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:20 am

You are suffering AI overload. Up the max allowed in battle in the bashed patch. Try raising it to 40. In the future, post your load order with Wrye Bash (Right-click on "File" -> choose list mods.) Your load order needs help. I will post again in a bit. If your PC cannot handle more AI in battle, which you will now if your performance plummets after upping the limit, try using FCOM and MMM reduced spawns plugins. Remember not to use FCOM "No " plugins, if you use the more up to date MMM versions.

Edit: Do you have the right plugins merged and deactivated?

To uninstall:

Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp <-- should help your AI overload a little

VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp <-- the BC version is replacer (you choose it during the "choose replacers" part of the BC OMOD installation)

Dark Dungeons.esp <-- Remove this one or the SI one, SI contains the original edits, only choose ONE
Dark Dungeons - SI.esp

[GFX]_Initial_Glow-all.esp <-- Remove the "self" version if you want "all," only choose ONE
[GFX]_Initial_Glow-self.esp

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:22 am

Disable OOO Waterfish first see if that help any it should..

if not that Disable MMM Waterlife..

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:52 am

You are suffering AI overload. Up the max allowed in battle in the bashed patch. Try raising it to 40. In the future, post your load order with Wrye Bash (Right-click on "File" -> choose list mods.) Your load order needs help. I will post again in a bit. If your PC cannot handle more AI in battle, which you will now if your performance plummets after upping the limit, try using FCOM and MMM reduced spawns plugins. Remember not to use FCOM "No " plugins, if you use the more up to date MMM versions.

Edit: Do you have the right plugins merged and deactivated?

To uninstall:

Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp <-- should help your AI overload a little

VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp <-- the BC version is replacer (you choose it during the "choose replacers" part of the BC OMOD installation)

Dark Dungeons.esp <-- Remove this one or the SI one, SI contains the original edits, only choose ONE
Dark Dungeons - SI.esp

[GFX]_Initial_Glow-all.esp <-- Remove the "self" version if you want "all," only choose ONE
[GFX]_Initial_Glow-self.esp

Thanks, TomLong. By the time I'm done with this install, I'm going to be deeply in your debt.

First, my Bashed Patch Load Order. I don't see a lot of difference between this load order and my other one, except this one publishes Load Order numbers. Maybe, if you have a moment, you could explain what this Load Order tells you that it's not telling me.

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:
00 Oblivion.esm
01 GTAesgaard_2.esm
02 Windfall.esm
03 TR_OoT_Main.esm
04 Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm
05 Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm
06 Cobl Main.esm [Version 1.72]
07 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm [Version 1.34]
08 Mart's Monster Mod.esm [Version 3.7b3p3]
09 Enhanced Daedric Invasion.esm
0A TamrielTravellers.esm [Version 1.36]
0B FCOM_Convergence.esm [Version 0.9.9MB3]
0C Armamentarium.esm [Version 1.35]
0D Artifacts.esm
0E Kvatch Rebuilt.esm
0F Better Cities Resources.esm
10 Progress.esm [Version 2.2]
11 StaticAlchemyMod.esm
12 CM Partners.esm
13 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp [Version 3.2.0]
14 DLCShiveringIsles.esp
15 Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp [Version 1.4.0]
16 Better Cities .esp
17 Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp
18 Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp
19 Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp
1A Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp
1B Francesco's Dark Seducer Weapons Patch.esp
1C FCOM_Francescos.esp [Version 0.9.9]
1D FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp [Version 0.9.9]
1E FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp [Version 0.9.9]
1F Fran Armor Add-on.esp
20 Fran_Lv30Item_Maltz.esp
21 Atmospheric Loading Screens - Original Text.esp
22 oc_darker_nights.esp
23 WindowLightingSystem.esp
24 ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp
25 FF_Real_Thirst.esp
26 TFF_Races_Base_RSM.esp
27 Acolyte_Of_Kynareth_HGEC.esp
28 Adonnays Classical Weaponry.esp
29 Adonnays Elven Weaponry.esp
2A ArchersDesire2.esp
2B EY_AoD.esp
2C Slof's Bracelet Collection.esp
2D Slof's Bracelets & Rings.esp
2E VA_HonamiDaito.esp
2F VA_UniqueKatana1.esp
30 UFF & ROBERT Noviere's Gray Fox Armor.esp
31 UFF Blood Ice.esp
32 UFF & RM Black Exnem Warrior Armor.esp
33 UFF & ROBERT Cold Steel.esp
34 Blackmarsh_Witch_HGEC_Clothing.esp
35 UFF - Celtic Witch Robes.esp
36 Royal Ranger Armor.esp
37 TFF_Armor_Base.esp
38 TFF_Clothing_Base.esp
39 UFF RM Dark Rider Armor.esp
3A UFF Black Courtesan Dress.esp
3B HGEC Witch Queen Ritual Robe.esp
3C UFF & RM Black Templar Armor.esp
3D UFF Dragonbone Armor Set.esp
3E UFF & RM Black Plate Armor.esp
3F UFF & RM Gold and Silver Daedric Armor.esp
40 UFF & RM Dark Daedric Armor.esp
41 UFF & RM Morrigan Armor.esp
42 UFF & RM Vermillion and Silverthorn Robes.esp
43 UFF_Unrepetant_Archer.esp
44 UFF_JenÈes_Honor.esp
45 UFF RM Ranger Armor.esp
46 KDCircletsOOOOptimized - NPC Equip.esp [Version 1.2]
47 FCOM_KDCircletsOOOOptimizedNPCEquip.esp [Version 0.9.9]
48 Cobl Glue.esp [Version 1.72]
49 Cobl Si.esp [Version 1.63]
4A FF_Real_Thirst, Cobl.esp
4B OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp [Version 1.72]
4C FCOM_Cobl.esp [Version 0.9.9]
4D Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp
4E FCOM_BobsArmory.esp [Version 0.9.9]
4F Loth's Blunt Weapons for Npcs.esp
50 FCOM_LothsBluntWeapons.esp [Version 0.9.9]
51 Oblivion WarCry EV.esp
52 FCOM_WarCry.esp [Version 0.9.9MB3]
53 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp [Version 1.34]
54 ArmamentariumArtifacts.esp [Version 1.35]
55 Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp [Version 3.7b1]
56 FCOM_Convergence.esp [Version 0.9.9Mb3]
57 FCOM_EntropicOrderRebalance.esp [Version 0.9.9beta2]
58 FCOM_RealSwords.esp [Version 0.9.9]
59 Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp [Version 3.7b3]
5A Mart's Monster Mod - No Swarms.esp [Version 3.7b3]
5B Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp [Version 3.7b3]
5C Mart's Monster Mod - No Slimes.esp [Version 3.7b3]
5D Mart's Monster Mod - No Werewolves.esp [Version 3.7b3]
5E Mart's Monster Mod - No Beholdens.esp [Version 3.7b3]
5F Mart's Monster Mod - Dungeons of MMM.esp [Version 3.7b3]
60 Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp [Version 3.7b3]
61 Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
62 Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp
63 Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp [Version 3.7b3p3f]
64 Mart's Monster Mod - Slof Horses Complete.esp [Version 3.7b3]
65 Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Runeskulls Loot G&GD.esp [Version 3.7b3]
66 TamrielTravellers4000.esp [Version 1.36]
67 TamrielTravellersItemsCobl.esp [Version 1.36]
68 FCOM_TamrielTravelers.esp [Version 0.9.9]
69 FCOM_DiverseGuardUnity.esp [Version 0.9.9]
6A FCOM_BobsGuardUnity.esp [Version 0.9.9]
6B FCOM_Archery.esp [Version 0.9.9]
6C Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp
6D ArmamentariumLL4OOO.esp [Version 2.01]
6E ArmamentariumLLMagicOOO.esp [Version 1.35]
6F KDCircletsOOOOptimized - Loot Only.esp [Version 1.2]
70 OOO-WaterFish.esp [Version 1.34]
71 Castle Ravenpride.esp [Version 1.01]
72 Ivellon.esp [Version 1.8]
73 Akiviri Imports MOBS.esp
74 Syntyche's Cavern.esp
75 AkaviriSamuraiShop.esp
76 Artifacts.esp
77 Artifacts - ArmaCompleteAddon.esp [Version 1.0]
78 Better Benirus Manor.esp
79 GTAesgaard.esp
7A GTAesgaard_2.esp
7B Gates To Aesgaard 2 Delayer.esp [Version 1.0]
7C Guardians of the Nine - Akatosh Chantry.esp
7D JolardHome.esp
7E Kvatch Rebuilt.esp
7F Kvatch Rebuilt - Leveled Guards - FCOM.esp
80 Malevolent.esp
81 Slof's Oblivion Goth Shop.esp
82 The Ayleid Steps.esp [Version 3.3]
83 TR_Stirk.esp
84 Stirk_Compatibility_Patch.esp
85 VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp
86 VHBloodlines 1.2.esp [Version 1.4]
87 Windfall.esp
88 za_bankmod.esp
89 Knights.esp
8A Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp [Version 1.0.9]
8B TOTF.esp
8C TOTF Delayer.esp
8D RTT.esp
8E The Lost Spires.esp
8F Blood&Mud.esp
90 The Mystery of the Dulan cult.esp
91 Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp [Version 3.7b3p3]
92 FCOM_Blood&Mud.esp [Version 0.9.9]
93 FCOM_Knights.esp [Version 0.9.9Mb3]
94 FCOM_Ruin.esp [Version 0.9.9]
95 FCOM_DulanCult.esp [Version 0.9.9]
96 Enhanced Daedric Invasion.esp
97 FCOM_EnhancedDaedricInvasion.esp [Version 0.9.9]
98 ElsweyrAnequina.esp
99 bartholm.esp
9A FCOM_UnofficialFranArmorAddon.esp [Version 0.9.9]
9B Harvest [Flora].esp [Version 3.0.0]
9C Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp [Version 3.0.0]
9D Bag of Holding.esp [Version 1.5.0]
9E DS Less Predictable Respawn.esp [Version 1.1]
9F DBWGP.esp [Version 1.13]
A0 Salmo the Baker, Cobl.esp [Version 3.08]
A1 RealisticFatigue.esp
A2 RealSleepExtended.esp [Version 2.3.4]
A3 Gather Ye Rosebuds.esp
A4 bgMagicEV.esp [Version 1.7EV]
A5 SupremeMagicka.esp [Version 0.89]
A6 SM_ShiveringIsles.esp [Version 0.86]
A7 SM_OOO.esp [Version 0.89]
A8 SM_MMM.esp [Version 0.89]
A9 SM_COBL.esp [Version 0.86]
AA SM_UnlockSpells.esp [Version 0.70]
AB SM_Scrolls.esp [Version 0.84]
AC SM_SigilStone.esp [Version 0.83]
AD attack and hide medium v2.1.esp
AE nGCD.esp
AF ProgressMBSP.esp [Version 2.0]
B0 ProgressSBSP.esp [Version 1.0]
B1 ProgressRBSP.esp [Version 1.0]
B2 ProgressRacial.esp
B3 ProgressArmorer.esp [Version 1.0]
B4 immersive_caves_auto.esp
B5 Dark Dungeons.esp
B6 Dark Dungeons - SI.esp
B7 TFF_Races_Base.esp
B8 BP_Roberts_BR_Hair.esp
B9 CM Partners.esp
BA CM Partners NPC NE.esp
BB CM Partners More NPCs NE.esp
BC CM Partners Extra NPCs.esp
BD CM Partners 20 Pack.esp
BE CM Kvatch Guards.esp
BF bgMagicSpellTomes_for_WryeBash.esp [Version 1.68EV]
C0 bgMagicEVPaperChase.esp [Version 1.68EV]
C1 Willful Resistance.esp [Version 4.0]
C2 More Soul Gems for Sale.esp
C3 Better Cities - Full City Defences.esp
C4 Better Cities Full - B&M Edition.esp
C5 Better Cities - Ruined Tail's Tale.esp
C6 Better Cities - Tears of the Fiend.esp
C7 Better Cities - No LEYAWIIN Flooding.esp
C8 Better Cities - VHBloodlines.esp
C9 Better Cities - VWD of the IC.esp
CA Better Cities Full - B&M Edition FPS Patch.esp
CB Better Imperial City.esp
CC Better Imperial City FPS Patch.esp
CD Better Cities - COBL.esp [Version 2]
CE [GFX]_Initial_Glow-all.esp
CF [GFX]_Initial_Glow-self.esp
D0 Real Hunger, Cobl.esp [Version 1.6.1]
D1 TuStartingOptions_01.esp
D2 Bashed Patch, 0.esp
D3 Streamline 3.1.esp

I will check the ReadMes for Initial Glow and Darker Dungeons - I thought I had read them before I installed them, but I'll look again and uninstall the duplicates. Thanks for catching that.

EDIT: You're right, I did screw that up. I've deleted the two faulty .esps and I'm rebuilding my patch now.

"VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp <-- the BC version is replacer (you choose it during the "choose replacers" part of the BC OMOD installation)" Hmm, I thought we had this discussion. You told me to delete the original and I did. The Better Cities version is all that's needed because it's a replacer, right?

@ Corepc: Disable OOO Waterfish in progress. Should I not disable these other mods that Tomlong is talking about?

Maybe a little explanation is order. AI Overload is when the computer cannot handle the animation and script processes of the AI? (This is just a guess). Since I was fighting only one person at a time, rather than a dozen (which can happen with FCOM), I have to assume AI overload includes more than just combat animations.

I'm using Wrye Bash 280 and I cannot see where to adjust the Max AI allowed in battle? Does it go by a different name? Looking again . . . will deactivate OOO Waterfish in the meantime.

Thanks for the help.

~ Dani ~

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:22 am

I cannot remember the exact name, but...found it, look here: http://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/walkthroughs/baininstallguide/f4.

I would not have posted this if you had use the Wrye Bash version "Edit: Do you have the right plugins merged and deactivated?" Now, I can see that you did not. Deactivate any mergeable plugins (distinguished with green text) loading in front of the bashed patch. Leaving them active is redundant and may cause problems if they were intended to be merged (as is the case with many of the FCOM plugins.) Read through that entire page I linked at the top of this post to check the rest of your bashed patch settings as well. Merged plugins, after deactivating them, will have a plus sign in the check box, denoting that they are virtually active (in the bashed patch.)

I also would have been able to see that the version number of your UOP plugin is (3.2.0) and recommended that you install the http://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/walkthroughs/baininstallguide/downloadrequired After installing the updated UOP plugin, you have to install the standalone OMOBS plugins for FCOM: http://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/walkthroughs/baininstallguide/f1. (Read the "notes" beneath the link to the file to make sure you are clear about what exactly you should download.)

Edit: Because of the density of additions of NPCs by overhauls, the chances that there are many NPCs out of our immediate site are great. You even added plugin(s) to raise that chance beyond the default. It is not about combat specifically, but think of that as being when the most AI packages are active. All of the other creatures and NPCs in range of your load NPCs distance (set in your video settings) also have AI packages. Other enemies might be moving toward you as well. Also keep in mind that in the FCOM-overhauled world, you are no longer the center of attention. As I travel, I see NPCs fighting in the distance all the time. That puts a load on your system too, even more fighting.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:48 am

Okay, I'll do this and thank you for explaining how this works. I can see how NPC's beyond my range of sight might have an impact on performance.

But I still cannot figure out how to do this:

"You are suffering AI overload. Up the max allowed in battle in the bashed patch. Try raising it to 40."

What exactly do I raise to 40 in Wrye Bash? Sorry to be slow . . .

EDIT: The only think I can find is: "Combat: Max Actors [[10]]."

~ Dani ~

EDIT:

And just so I'm doing this right: I run a Bashed Patch, THEN I disable any mod file that is green. When I disable it, the check box turns to a + sign. Correct? (And it's still working 'cause it's merged into the patch)? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to learn what I'm doing as I'm doing it.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:01 am

Okay, I'll do this and thank you for explaining how this works. I can see how NPC's beyond my range of sight might have an impact on performance.

But I still cannot figure out how to do this:

"You are suffering AI overload. Up the max allowed in battle in the bashed patch. Try raising it to 40."

What exactly do I raise to 40 in Wrye Bash? Sorry to be slow . . .

EDIT: The only think I can find is: "Combat: Max Actors [[10]]."

I don't mean to be snarky, but Wrye Bash does have a readme. Check the section on Bash Patches - it'll tell you everything you need to know, and goes over all the settings. "Combat: Max Actors" is the maximum number of actors that the engine will process in combat, so yes - if you increase this, it will allow the game to handle more actors in combat.

And just so I'm doing this right: I run a Bashed Patch, THEN I disable any mod file that is green. When I disable it, the check box turns to a + sign. Correct? (And it's still working 'cause it's merged into the patch)? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to learn what I'm doing as I'm doing it.

Yes. Mods that are merged into the bash patch are no longer "active" - meaning the game won't register them against the 255-mod limit, but the information they hold still appears in game through the bash patch.

If you haven't already, you could also give BOSS a try - it automatically orders your mods and adds bash tags (though you should still check it over manually to make sure everything's kosher; chances are it won't recognize every single mod you have). Fix the load order first, make sure you've got all the tags necessary, THEN rebuild the patch and disable any merged mods.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:57 pm

To change options in the bashed patch that you see with the [[]] at the end, right-click and choose one of the options.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:28 am

I don't mean to be snarky, but Wrye Bash does have a readme. Check the section on Bash Patches - it'll tell you everything you need to know, and goes over all the settings. "Combat: Max Actors" is the maximum number of actors that the engine will process in combat, so yes - if you increase this, it will allow the game to handle more actors in combat.

You're right and I'm sorry. I completely missed the part about right clicking on the item to change the value on the list. I misread that part of the readme.

Yes. Mods that are merged into the bash patch are no longer "active" - meaning the game won't register them against the 255-mod limit, but the information they hold still appears in game through the bash patch.

If you haven't already, you could also give BOSS a try - it automatically orders your mods and adds bash tags (though you should still check it over manually to make sure everything's kosher; chances are it won't recognize every single mod you have). Fix the load order first, make sure you've got all the tags necessary, THEN rebuild the patch and disable any merged mods.

I am using BOSS. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:09 am

Your list look BOSS-ed to me. The installation errors had nothing to do with BOSS.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:54 am

Okay, this may be a stupid, silly question, but I can't find the answer in the Wyre Bash ReadMe and, yes, I looked:

If you build your Bashed Patch, then deselect the "green" mods (activating the +), do you have to "reselect" them (changing the + to a check) prior to building a new patch or do you leave them as they are?

~ Dani ~

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:55 am

I will just say this: If you can remember not to activate your mergeable plugins, just do not ever activate them. It is harder to distinguish which ones are merged and/or only imported when all of your plugins are checked. You can have them activated when rebuilding the bashed patch, but that changes the form IDs. I say just avoid the potential trouble. Active versus virtually active makes a big difference to Oblivion itself, and it will cough at your about missing content (even though it is now in the bashed patch.) If you look at the hex numbers in a column to the right of the plugin names, you will see that merged plugins do not have a hex digit. They are not truly active.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:05 pm

Sigh. Here is what I've done:

1. I removed the duplicate .esps for Initial Glow and Darker Dungeons.

2. I disabled OOO Waterfish.

3. I rebuilt my Wrye Bash patch and deselected all green .esps., changing them from a check to cross.

4. With the green .esps unchecked, I rebuilt my patch again. No change.

5. In Wrye Bash, under Tweak Settings, I changed Combat: MaxActors to 40.

6. I rebuilt my batch. Test. No change. The single highwayman on the bridge over the Upper Niben will rush me and stand there while I beat him to death.

7. I reviewed my previous steps to make sure I hadn't missed anything. I then deselected MMM Diverse WaterLife.esp per Corepc's suggestion.

8. I lowered the iMaxImpactSoundCount from 24 to 16.

9. I rebuilt my Wrye Bash patch again, this time raising the Combat: MaxActors to 50, the maximum.

10. Test. No change. Well, I think the Highwayman may have swung at me once this time, but I still beat him to death quite easily.

Factors I noticed:

First, throughout all this, my FPS on FRAPs did not change one bit. Seriously, it was steady throughout, not going up or going down. Even when I increased the MaxActors to 50, it didn't go down, at all. Didn't go up, either.

Lowering the iMaxImpactSoundCount to 16 made no difference in my FPS.

Before I got to bed tonight, I'm going to disable "Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp" per Tomlong's suggestion and test again. Frankly, I'm sorry to see this .esp go as it sounds fascinating. From the readme (yes, I do read them): "This adds over 1300 New Enemy Variants to Game. Maruaders, Bandits, Smugglers, Raiders, Reavers, Foresters, and more. Some people may have problem using this under stressful condition's. Has game engine has to generate faces on the fly after all. See Npc section for details on Npcs Classes." If I understand, deselecting the mod will remove Raiders, Reavers, Smugglers, Foresters, etc. from my game. But I'll give it a shot.

Thanks to everyone for their help - and their patience. I really do appreciate it.

~ Dani ~

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:33 pm

What CPU are you using? It seems to handle FCOM well enough. Maybe you should try respawning the cell after making all of those tweaks, but I do not think that the respawn cell is a necessary measure with those types of changes. Try removing Looting NPCs & Creatures. It causes problems for some...

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:18 pm

What CPU are you using? It seems to handle FCOM well enough. Maybe you should try respawning the cell after making all of those tweaks, but I do not think that the respawn cell is a necessary measure with those types of changes. Try removing Looting NPCs & Creatures. It causes problems for some...

Windows XP 2002 Service Pack 3 installed
Processor: Intel Pentium D 820 Dual Core 2.80GHz
3 GB Ram
512 ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series graphics card
1440x900 Resolution
Onboard sound card.
Recently rebuilt machine, Oblivion is the only program on it. (Well, right, Oblivion and 7zip and Wrye Bash, Python, OMOD, etc.)

When we rebuilt the machine, we reinstalled Windows, wiping the machine clean. One of the frustrations I'm having tonight is that we had Oblivion + FCOM installed on this machine before we cleaned it and it ran fine, without lag. I suppose I thought cleaning the machine would improve the performance. I suppose it could be a driver issue, but I'm fairly certain we downloaded the latest ATI drivers, as well as the latest drivers from the HP (yes, it's an HP Pavillion Media Center computer) website.

One thing that has changed: we weren't using the current FCOM install, meaning we had not upgraded to the fullest, latest version of MMM. Now we have.

One other thing: if Oblivion doesn't take advantage of multi-core processors (as I've read at various places on this forum), then just how big must my single or double core processor be to run Oblivion with FCOM? Just curious.

~ Dani ~

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:40 pm

Your dual core is fine. Even if Oblivion is not good at explicitly taking advantage of multiple cores, there are always processes running in the background (even if you turn off our anti-virus programs and the like.) Other cores can handle that stuff, which still contributes to a smoother Oblivion experience.

This is not a lag issue. The game engine simply has certain limitations, and at least one of them has to do with the number of AI packages processed at a time. I forgot and I am dying from fatigue here, so excuse me if you already told me this. Are you already using OSR and SL? Have you looked at the suggested sl.ini suggestions on my site? One thing I need to add to it is if you have a good enough system and need more aggressive purge buffer management (which is often the case with heavily modded setups I think) lower the StreamPurge number from 4 (the recommended default) to 3 or 2. The issue with very aggressive PCB management, is that data stored in memory that scripts or AI packages might need is more likely to be tossed out prematurely. However, Arthmoor, whose tech opinions I very much respect, is running with it at 2 and seems to be fine with SL.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:23 am

Your dual core is fine. Even if Oblivion is not good at explicitly taking advantage of multiple cores, there are always processes running in the background (even if you turn off our anti-virus programs and the like.) Other cores can handle that stuff, which still contributes to a smoother Oblivion experience.

This is not a lag issue. The game engine simply has certain limitations, and at least one of them has to do with the number of AI packages processed at a time. I forgot and I am dying from fatigue here, so excuse me if you already told me this. Are you already using OSR and SL? Have you looked at the suggested sl.ini suggestions on my site? One thing I need to add to it is if you have a good enough system and need more aggressive purge buffer management (which is often the case with heavily modded setups I think) lower the StreamPurge number from 4 (the recommended default) to 3 or 2. The issue with very aggressive PCB management, is that data stored in memory that scripts or AI packages might need is more likely to be tossed out prematurely. However, Arthmoor, whose tech opinions I very much respect, is running with it at 2 and seems to be fine with SL.

Okay, first thing: please get some rest. This can wait until another day. I'm going to bed soon myself.

Second, and no problem, yes, I'm running SL and I've checked the setup twice. I have the uGrid settings on 15 with the corresponding fog distances. SL confirmed it was running correctly. I'll check the streampurge numbers again, but I think I have it set at 3. I'll lower it to 2.

I'm also running OSR. (And as a result, I'm not running the Streamsmooth function on SL). I have not modified it from the install.

I'm frankly bugged by this. My FPS does not make sense. I get lower FPS in the IC Market and the IC Waterfront than I get anywhere else (I am running Better Cities). Other parts of the IC are in the twenties. I can set my character to autorun (Q) and run from Chorrol to the IC with only a couple of moments of hesitation, when I cross into a new cell. Sometimes, tho, when I enter a cell, the game seems to lock up and my FPS drops to single digits (this could be a result of the MMM Additional NPC vars generating the new faces on the fly, for that cell).

I've noticed no stutter during combat. Except for the problem I posted, and a very low FPS in certain areas, I've not noticed any other problems. Doesn't mean they're not there, but I've not noticed them.

Thanks so much for your help.

~ Dani ~

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:30 am

Actually it does make sense that you get lower FPS there: the waterfront because of the water and the clutter around the houses in the back, the IC Market district because of the tremendous amount of clutter and newly added items all aroun. FPS dropping on cell transition with heavy mod additions in an area is not unusual either. Your CPU is good, but it is not that good. If you are not getting much stuttering during combat, you are doing very well.

Some places to go where BC kills your FPS (if you really want to know what it can do to machines):
#7 Chorrol in the circular area in front of the Mages Guild with AWLS (or even worse, another much worse for optimization window and shutters mods, which is any other mod of its kind)
#6 IC Market District
#5 stand behind the chapel in Skingrad (where you may have already had the misfortune of meeting with Glarthir) just stand there and wait a bit, then try it with a torch out

#4 IC Waterfront
#3 Anvil Docks
#2 Have you been to B&M Bravil yet? The only place where I get FPS worse than that is in select parts of Bruma.
#1 walk behind the chapel, in the poorer part of Bruma

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:38 am

Actually it does make sense that you get lower FPS there: the waterfront because of the water and the clutter around the houses in the back, the IC Market district because of the tremendous amount of clutter and newly added items all aroun. FPS dropping on cell transition with heavy mod additions in an area is not unusual either. Your CPU is good, but it is not that good. If you are not getting much stuttering during combat, you are doing very well.

Some places to go where BC kills your FPS (if you really want to know what it can do to machines):
#7 Chorrol in the circular area in front of the Mages Guild with AWLS (or even worse, another much worse for optimization window and shutters mods, which is any other mod of its kind)
#6 IC Market District
#5 stand behind the chapel in Skingrad (where you may have already had the misfortune of meeting with Glarthir) just stand there and wait a bit, then try it with a torch out

#4 IC Waterfront
#3 Anvil Docks
#2 Have you been to B&M Bravil yet? The only place where I get FPS worse than that is in select parts of Bruma.
#1 walk behind the chapel, in the poorer part of Bruma

Yes, well, there you are. You listed my problems nicely. I forgot all about AWLS. Yes, at night things are worse and that circle in Chorrol is bad, but nowhere is worse than Bravil. Even before installing Better Cities and before cleaning the Windows machine, coming out of the Bravil Mages guild with Blood and Mud installed was an immediate introduction to lag. Of course, I could always count on City Swimmer to eventually start something and the entire area breaks out in combat. That usually removes about six NPCs, raising the FPS a bit.

Oddly enough, even with Better Cities and Blood & Mud installed, Bravil still hovers in the 20 FPS range on my MacBook Pro. Which I think is telling me something...

To answer your earlier question, I've been studying your website carefully tonight, going through the various parts, picking up several tricks I didn't know about. I've mirrored my streamline .ini to match yours.

Just curious, how many mods are you running?

~ Dani ~

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:14 pm

Will be running when I return home in May: ~400 (counting purely plugins + replacers) ~210 active plugins ~250 plugins total <-- want to keep this number as low as possible, still have more merging to do...

Your load list is not too different from mine, but all of my new items mods are merged into a single plugin. The same goes for Anims, small game tweaks and various groups of packages, each in their own merged plugin. More than 10% of my mods are texture replacers, however.

Edit: I have yet to merge the UOMPs onto their masters. I think I may also have a graphics replacer or two with plugins that could be merged as well.

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:28 am

Which version of Wrye Bash are you using? I had the same problem you were with the NPCs (mine would just stand there unless I got within melee range), then it mysteriously went away when I added some new bash tags and upgraded to 2.80. The latest version also gave me a huge boost in performance - my game is a lot more stable and I get better FPS. I'm using a full FCOM+TIE setup, plus heavy hitters like RAEVWD, QTP3R, and a bunch of other texture improvers.

Removing NPC Vars is probably a good idea - BOSS says that it can cause crashing on heavily modded games, and I think it's included in the latest version of FCOM (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!).

I was going to suggest this last night, before I knew how experienced you were: you might want to think about merging some of those armor plugins. You've got a ton of them, and they're all for the same body type(s), so merging shouldn't be a major problem.

And finally, yes: if you merge plugins, you don't need to touch them ever again. Even after you deactivate them - you don't need to rebuild the patch. They're already merged; deactivating them just removes them from the active load order so it doesn't mess things up.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:04 pm

If you merge plugins you should get rid of the original plugins, and remove plugins from the active load order can mess things up because the formIDs for almost all of the merged items will be different. Hopefully, it goes well. You should be able to tell if something bad happened, however.

Edit: You can update your save in Wrye Bash to make the save look to the new plugin for the missing records. I do not know all of the risks of that method, but I use it from time to time. Right-clicking on now merged (and removed) armor plugin X in the list of master for the save and pointing to the new merged items plugin.

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:36 am

Which version of Wrye Bash are you using? I had the same problem you were with the NPCs (mine would just stand there unless I got within melee range), then it mysteriously went away when I added some new bash tags and upgraded to 2.80. The latest version also gave me a huge boost in performance - my game is a lot more stable and I get better FPS. I'm using a full FCOM+TIE setup, plus heavy hitters like RAEVWD, QTP3R, and a bunch of other texture improvers.

Removing NPC Vars is probably a good idea - BOSS says that it can cause crashing on heavily modded games, and I think it's included in the latest version of FCOM (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!).

I was going to suggest this last night, before I knew how experienced you were: you might want to think about merging some of those armor plugins. You've got a ton of them, and they're all for the same body type(s), so merging shouldn't be a major problem.

And finally, yes: if you merge plugins, you don't need to touch them ever again. Even after you deactivate them - you don't need to rebuild the patch. They're already merged; deactivating them just removes them from the active load order so it doesn't mess things up.

I'm using the latest version, 2.80. I haven't added any bash tags because I noticed BOSS did that and from what I can tell, Wrye Bash pulls the tags from the BOSS list. But, as you say, I could be wrong. I'll check again.

Yeah, I need to start merging some of these mods today. I'm going to start with long string of armor mods see how that goes. If nothing else, the game should load faster.

Okay, thanks for the info on the rebuilding the patch. I wasn't clear if you had to rebuild the patch after deselecting.

I did some further tests last night and it looks like one of the big FPS drains is AWLS (Animated Window Lighting System). The difference between night and day is, well, the difference between night and day.

About 4-6 FPS in the Chorrol circle. I'm currently using the advanced .esp, maybe I should cut back to the medium or base.

And then that got me thinking: I'm currently running four "real" mods: FF Real Thirst, Real Hunger, Real Fatigue, and Real Sleep. All of those have their own scripts that run all the time. Maybe I should dump those, although I really like the immersive quality of those mods.

Finally, I played for a bit last night (yeah, it was a late night) on my MacBook install. Even though the processor is smaller (2.4 GHz v. 2.8 on the windows desktop), the game runs much faster and better. The Mac does have 4 gig of ram to the windows 3 gig. The only problem I'm having (and actually I'm having this on both machines) is sometimes when I cross into a new exterior cell (for example, two or three times on the road from the IC to Bruma) my game lags momentarily and the FPS drops to single digits - sometimes as low as 1-4 FPS. I thought OSR remover took care of this?

~ Dani ~

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:08 am

Unless you know what you are doing, you should not go around adding bash tags. In fact, FCOM now may need a bash tag or two removed from some of its plugins. Wrye Bash v280 seems fine to me outside of that bug, but that bug is not here, so no matter there either. You do not have to rebuild the bashed patch after deselecting merged mods. Well, those AWLS stats sound...terrible. However, your GPS should drop. Oh, your CPU is 2.4GHz. Well...then that is not too unexpected. My CPU is a 3.16GHz Core 2 Duo. I do not think I have been to Chorrol at night with AWLS, but I have used other, less-optimized lighting mods. I am happy to have Chorrol staying in the high teens, when in that circular area, or looking toward it.

OSR can only do so much on that note. Try running without OSR and see what happens. You should find that it is doing a lot. Your game is heavily modded, and that is not even a real gaming machine, so...

I forgot one really bad FPS location: Go into Cheydinhal and (from any location) look toward the central area (where all the people are walking around the shops.)...talk about sudden FPS death...

Edit: UPDATE

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22368

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:35 pm

Yeah, BOSS will auto-add any tags that are listed for a given mod, so you don't have to do anything. However, like Tom said, some of the FCOM mods probably have extraneous tags - you should remove Actors.DeathItem from Warcry, or you'll end up with far too many goblin trophies (I got this from the FCOM folks, so it's good advice).

I use AWLS too, and I believe I run it on Medium. When you're choosing stuff like that, don't automatically max it out - go with what you think your machine can handle. Unless you've got a supercomputer, it's best to stick with moderate settings at first until you see how it runs.