Here's something I've pondered - is it possible for two enlightened individuals to exist at the same time who have attained CHIM? And if so, what would happen if they got mad and tried to destroy each other? Or even if they entered the same room?

My understanding of it seems to be that CHIM is realizing that you are a merely a reflection of two absurdly interacting infinite forces (an echo of an echo of an echo within a Cavern of Irrelevance and Nothing), maintaining that realization, yet still asserting your existence as an individual, thus transcending the boundaries to which other mortals are constrained ("maintaining the Tower"). (This is the short version, of course). What it entails, according to what I've seen, is that you can do anything and that you have basically willed your way above everyone and everything in terms of power - even the et'Ada.

We KNOW that Vivec has it, and it's implied that there's a good chance that Talos had/has it (in addition to having reached the final subgradient). My question is whether it is indeed POSSIBLE for two individuals to have it. CHIM to me seems like a somewhat difficult and lonely position - if you're at the very top, who can you share it with? Acknowledging the existence of ANOTHER individual at the same metaphysical level seems to put a paradoxical limit on the power of something which by nature ought to have NO limits. If there are two Complete Masters, it stands to reason that neither of them are Complete Masters at all because they cannot master each other. Or is CHIM available to anyone with the wisdom and willpower to achieve it?

And if the latter is true, what would happen when two such unstoppable forces clashed, for whatever reason? Would their acknowledgment of something outside their influence and borders (yet transcendent in the exact same sense that they are) cause the Tower to fall apart? Would they merge as one being? Would the universe be destroyed? Or would they just bang endlessly against each other like a pair of rubber freight trains?


Or is this simply a wrongheaded question? If so, please explain exactly why I'm an idiot for throwing this question out there. I won't be offended if you do - I'm asking this question in the purely academic spirit of either finding a straight answer or sparking a debate among people in search of one.

To me, it's an pretty good question. To other more knowledgeable lore buffs, I'm not too sure.

CHIM involves Universal Love. Note that Tiber's proof of the abilities of CHIM (the "Red King once Jungled" text; forgot exact name) where he removed Cyrodiil's jungles was an act of Love, not just superficial super-duper-hella-kamehameha magical force, as it may seem.

Basically, I'm saying I believe not a thing would happen if "two or more beings" had CHIM. This, of course, is just MY opinion. Love's involved. Thus, nothing should "fall apart."

I realize that may seem extremely simplified for what seems a complicated question. I'll attempt to elaborate if you want me to.

I actually had this exact same question, but never got around to posting it. I think that two beings who ARE would realize (or, indeed, already know) that they are each other, just as they are everything is nothing is I.

That being said, whatever became of Talos after the apotheosized himself into the ranks of the Nine?

Realize (or recall) that Talos became Talos the God after Daggerfall, NOT right after Tiber-Hjalti died.

It's only lonely in your head if there's nothing in it, innit?

Of course it's paradoxical. The thing is built on a paradox. You'd share with yourself, since you stopped being so dualistic and greedy over what's me and mine ages ago. Or at least you kinda half did. Um.


Source? Never heard anything like this. I don't understand why Daggerfall's endings had any influence over the long dead Talos's ascension. Or why he became a god only 400 years after he reenacted myth. Or how, for that matter, the present incarnation of the nine divines only existed for about 40 years by the time of Oblivion, and less than 20 by the time of Morrowind.

Good question, but you're not quite there yet regarding what CHIM truly is. But you didn't ask what CHIM is, so here's my opinion on your question.

Is it possible for two individuals to have CHIM? No and yes.
Due to the limitations of The World, CHIM is exclusive. See "The Ruling King". I am convinced that Vivec "had" absolutely no CHIM (speaking of CHIM as a quality) when the Nerevarine met him on Vvardenfell. However, limitations can be overcome, especially when the world is expanded to, well, let's say to a different place, or better: medium. There, it is quite possible (and paradox) for more than one entity "having" CHIM.

As to what would happen when two entities with the quality of CHIM clash - if outside the limitations of The World: Anything could. From having great fun to ruining each other's fun, from creating a beautiful world to endless selfish or boring deeds or to a fight where nobody would win and nobody would lose.

Or all at once, which would be more interesting.

And here again the confusion between CHIM and the final subgradient surfaces. Many people don't seem to understand the difference. Talos was a manifestation of the Enantiomorph, which would allow him to reach the final subgradient. What Talos has, though ultimately leading down to the same place that CHIM does, is not the same thing.


-http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml

That being said, I was under the impression only one could achieve CHIM, due to its individualistic aspect. However, like others have said, the fact that it is built on a very real paradox makes any clear answer very hard to come by.

I think of CHIM as realizing your nothing but pixels in a game. Because, every time it's mentioned, there seems to be something about realizing that nothings relevant.
Like that adds to this thread though...

I think if two CHIM beings were to interact, both would become un-CHIM as they would be driven mad. But this is backed up by absolutely nothing besides common sense hypothesis.

I see what you're saying, but I'm just saying that the Nine didn't really become Nine until after Daggerfall.

Speaking superficially about his worshipped Nine Divines form and NOT about the mantling/Enantiomorph jive.

I try to understand it as this:

If CHIM is transcendence to realizing that you are simply a reflection of two opposite forces, and yet still asserting individuality, then I would say yes, it is possible for two individuals to "have" CHIM, but no, it would not be possible for any conflict to arise.

"Having" CHIM would change the outlook for the individual who attained CHIM, thus showing him/her that every person is this same reflection of opposite forces; the realization that all are one and the same at the most basic and transcendent level (if that paradox makes sense). If two were to attain CHIM, then, within CHIM, they would by definition not bother with any sort of conflict, for they (or just the one consciousness) would understand that they are one and the same, a reflection. By attaining CHIM, they would feel no need to instigate strife. By definition, there's no room.



One would only acknowledge the existence of another individual at the individual level, not at the metaphysical, for that would mean that these persons who attained CHIM were still differentiating individuality at a level where individuality doesn't exist, therefore negating their CHIM. One cannot recognize another individual at CHIM, for at CHIM, all are the same - a reflection, an expression. At CHIM, one may notice that there are individuals that have attained this level of transcendence, but do not make the same differentiation within CHIM.

It makes sense to me...

Since CHIM is not just realizing you are the sum of existence, but also, that at the same time you are very much an individual, a part of existence, I imagine it would be quite possible for more than one individual to achieve CHIM. After all, it is a fact of existence for everyone, those who achieve CHIM simply have realized that and transcend because of that. Albides and El Breton have a better explanation of this paradox they were both also getting at.

A kind of simplistic anology I use to think about it is this: Inside something like a watch that runs on clockwork, you have bits and pieces and cogs that cause the watch to operate. One cog is an individual, but it also affects and has connections with the neighboring cogs, just like a person, and through those cogs has more connections with other cogs, causing them to move. In the end through all the many relationships it is connected to all the other cogs, even if they are not immediately next to it, and as such is also the entire watch. The same thing with every other cog. Parts of every cog are in every other cog because of their influences upon each other, creating the universe/existence of the watch.

I don't think my idea is quite right, but, as I mentioned, there are other, better explanations.

As for what happens at the point when more than one individual "I" achieves CHIM, I personally don't have much of an idea. Vivec exists out of time and space in a place/state he refers to in the Sermons as the "Provisional House." I've always presumed this was a place (somewhere out in the Void, I suspect) where there was only Vivec, essentially was Vivec, his own "sphere" of sorts where his own world with its own rules existed. If these assumptions are correct, then perhaps that means any others who ascended by CHIM have such "places" of their own and cannot interact with each other on a metaphysical level but only on a physical level (such as on Nirn). I warn you these are really just vague postulations by me, the chances that they are correct are very slim, but I wanted to throw out some ideas.

Okay, call me silly, but I always had an idea about this that I found a bit amusing. I know that, in the reality outside the games, the devs didn't decide to make Talos a god until after Daggerfall, and that the NPCs in Morrowind saying that Talos always was a god was just a retcon. A possible coverup explanation, I thought, would be that for some reason originally Talos could not ascend while Zurin Arctus was trapped in the Mantella. With the freeing of Arctus as the Underking and the Dragonbreak at the end of the events of Daggerfall, Talos was then able to ascend and, of course, as with any other ascension to godhood, had always existed, since he went outside of time.

That probably ends up not working out, if purely because I could never tell who was who with Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, Ysmir, Talos, the Underking, etc. and understand their relationships to each other.

I know that. "Walk like them until blah blah blah" and all that stuff. But I seem to recall that he might have attained CHIM as well at some other point. I think it's implied in MK's Divine Retcon of Cyrodil, IIRC.



That's interesting. I'd like to hear what it is I don't understand about it. (I'm not trying to sound confrontational or defensive, I just genuinely want to know - again, I'm quite open to criticism).

I usually start with the Sermons, accompanied by the following thoughts/questions of mine:
While reading the Sermons, try to answer the following question: To whom are these texts adressed?

When you can answer above question, ask yourself why Vivec specifically chose that adress. Also, keep in mind that they are titled "Lessons", so they are meant to teach something, besides being poetry.
Another little hint that I hope might make things easier: when you come across seemingly overly complicated passages. A lot of Vehk's Sermons are metaphors for things that are undescribable for most readers. Imagine someone never having seen or heard of snow before and you have to describe it to him. You can't just say its snow, because he wouldn't understand it. Maybe you would say something along the lines of "it's like white, cold down falling from the clouds".
Vehk's doing exactly that. Describing the "indescribable" in words that can be understood.

Then, take Vehk's Teachings, they elaborate on the Sermons. Also, the Loveletter of the Fifth Era is an important thing to read. Keep in mind, CHIM in itself is - once you figure it out - not a very complicated thing to "know" - anyone can do it and even have it without even knowing. Including you. The greater meaning of it - for Tamriel et all - and thus the fascination, reveals itself when putting thought into it. And noone can think for you, you just have to do it by yourself.

Also, since you seem familiar with the basic sources, here are a few choice words I find most fascinating to think about: "The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world. He sleeps the second way."
or
"Let me talk to you of the world, which I share with mystery and love. Who is her capital? Have you taken the scenic route of her cameo? I have-- lightly, in secret, missing candles because they're on the untrue side, and run my hand along the edge of a shadow made from one hundred and three divisions of warmth, and left no proof."

I have read the Loveletter. I recall perusing Vehk's Teachings once. I guess I'll take a closer look at them. Are there any specific Lessons I should look at?

My experience thus far with Kirkbride's texts is that it's a lot like looking at your own nose. You know it's there, and you can get a vague idea of its shape, but it's just outside your direct line of sight. Also, if you stare at it too long, you'll go cross-eyed.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to stare at my nose for a while. Really hard.

The implication is that he has simply reached a new level of existence, which is true. It isn't necessarily CHIM, it just has to be something equal in meta-physical impact (which it is).

Do you recognize the existance of other people as reality? If so, then yes.



Historical records suggest that results would range from the abrupt disappearance, without explanation, of one person, to generations-long feud, to a world war. It depends on the people in question.


Around here, the main result of that is usually either to offer brief, polite greetings, or ignore one another...

Well, I really didn't get anything out of Vehk's Teaching that I didn't already know, unless there's something REALLY important I missed. Perhaps I simply didn't explain my understanding completely. I'll try to delve deeper into the Thirty-Six Sermons tomorrow (or later tonight). I would've finished it by now but I was interrupted by something more pressing and now I've lost the mind for it.

Could I continue this through private message if I have any further questions, Nalion? Because it doesn't really fit in this thread.

If you're explaining CHIM, then you're getting there, but still have to take it the next step, being: All of the cogs make up the watch, and one of them may realize that it is part of the watch (to give thoughts and feeling to watch-cogs). But at the same time, it also knows that it is the watch, in it's entirety - it's existence is the individualistic reflection of the entire watch, a manifestation of a concept that is beyond the understanding of the other watch-cogs.

So yes, the anology stops working about 3/4 of the way thru, but the idea remains. For the record, Lorus, I think you explained what I was trying to get at a lot better than my first attempt; I think I digressed on to something else.

And I'm saying that's wrong, unless you're talking about when he was written into the timeline as opposed to what really happened in-universe.

Well, yes, that is what I meant. Basically, I just was explaining the nature of existence that a person (or cog in the anology I used) must realize to achieve CHIM. I just left out the next step of the actual realization by the individual/cog, which is CHIM, that you mention. Of course, adding that step probably makes it easier to understand.

Talos had CHIM (if you can trust Mankar Camoran)
CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.
- Mythic Dawn Commentaries

I think it fits in the thread, but you can PM me any time nontheless.

Relatedly, how does one pronounce CHIM? Is it "CHĬM", "KĪM", what?

Chim-Chiminey, Chim-Chiminey, Chim Chim Cheru

least that's me.