I think the numbers was 1 Power Armored BoS solider dead per 10 NCR soliders dead, and the NCR was wearing leather armore and using rifles(and explosives).

I doubt it. Beth has been careful not to step on the toes of Western canon.

Why is there a Maxson descendant out east?

Fan service.

I bloody hope Beth hasn't planned on turning the BoS into a solely benevolent charity faction ?_? Even if west coast is gone, the Outcasts will continue to the best of their abilities. But there's no reason why the BoS in Lost Hills will be gone, the West Coast has stabilised with the elimination of the Master and the Enclave in that region.

The Maxon child was sent out the to D.C because, get this; "The Brotherhood's High Elders decided that he would be safer in the Citadel under the protection of Elder Lyons than anywhere else in the wasteland"

How ridiculous is that

Totally agree. As of Van Buren, the NCR was the only group that was large enough and organized enough to beat the Western BOS into submission. But since Van Buren's out the window, I'm guessing the BOS is still alive and well.



Yep. :facepalm:

Beth may not be "stepping on the toes" of Western canon, BUT there's nothing to stop them from taking the canon in entirely new directions now. After all, they own Fallout canon lock, stock and barrel. It is theirs to do with as they wish, for better or worse. If someone says "but that's not according to canon", oh but it is. Anything Beth adds in is now canon, whether or not the old school fans agree..

Even in FO1, there was a certain degree of Factionalism within the Brotherhood.

In FO3, we see that this sort of thing can cause outright divisions and splits - the Outcasts leave Lyons' Brotherhood, to continue their mission as THEY see it.

...

It is thus not beyond plausibility that had young Maxson remained in the West, he would have been the object of a political tug-of-war, as each of several factions within the brotherhood sought to control and influence him. That sort of power-struggle, with a young boy at the center, could not be but devastatingly harmful to the boy in question.

Not to mention the possibility that his presence, and the resulting struggle for control and influence, might have been even more dangerous to the brotherhood itself.

Thus, one solution to both dangers: get teh boy out of the West - put him at arms' length somewhere where he'll still be educated as a Brotherhood Squire, where he'll still learn his heritage ... but where not only will the internal power-struggle politics of the Brotherhood not affect him, he won't affect them, either.

...

Very much a "King Arthur" sort of story, and I wouldn't be surprised to see FO4 or FO5 explore young Maxson's return to power. Possibly aided by a wastelander standing in the role of Lancelot ... and controlled by us, as the protagonist of the story. Whether that return will be in the West, or based out of the revitalised D.C. ruins in the East, who can say?

I can even see the idea of the Brotherhood's mission changing (under so much influence from Elder Lyons, and his daughter - on whom the boy is explicitly stated to have a crush), to one of rebuilding; conserving the tech of Yesterday not solely for the sake OF conserving it ... but to see that it is leveraged to bring as much prosperity and peace as possible to Today.

With that vision in mind - and with access to top-secret files on computes in D.C. (and in the Vault-Tech headquarters); if time jumps ten or fifteen years ahead, a lot of those collapsed building sections around D.C. could have been excavated - the new Brotherhood might start seeking out Vaults and opening them now, to recruit more educated, civilised people who have a familiarity with technology into their ranks. Hopefully by peaceful means, unlike the Enclave, of course!

The protagonist of a future game could be just such a person. Ultra-tech (like power armor) might be in short supply, but being given a choice right off between, say, a 10mm pistol or a Laser Pistol, as well as getting a suit of leather armor and handful of assorted chems, would be suitable IMO. Then, you get sent out on a mission to X or Y new area, to aid in the initial "explore, stabilise, assist, and recruit" process ...

That could actually prove workable as a game premise, at least as a a START of one.

Bingo, that's what I was thinking, in regards to the Western BoS.

A factional division of some kind, probably in relation to the Brotherhood's status as a autonomous state within the NCR. We saw what the initiation of a single Wastelander did in regards to the status of the Brotherhood in Fallout 1. Throw in a whole community of Wastelanders that know where the Brotherhood is and how to contact them, and add in Lyon's own mission of salvation in the East and there's a big chance for division within the ranks.

Frankly, I'm pleased by Bethesda's new direction with the Brotherhood. Despite the grumbling by some older fans, one of the things I hated in Fallout 2 was the Brotherhood's absolute lack of presence to the point they're almost regarded as a foot note. In Fallout 1, the Brotherhood was a big deal. In Fallout 2? Getting access to the Brotherhood bunkers was "Eh, that's neat...I guess" (Also the whole fact you obtain the T-51b Armor *AFTER* you get the Advanced Power Armor mark II was pretty stupid)

So for me personally, making the Brotherhood more proactive to the Wasteland and becoming more visible is a good thing. And it's not like it's not without merit. For as many people who cry foul over Bethesda's direction with the Brotherhood, there's an awful lot of folks who forget Tactics and the Midwestern Brotherhood.

Good post! I'd also like to see a future Fallout game that expands on the Brotherhood. We'll just have to wait and see (and hope)..

Nuuu that doesn't fly. Maxon would have been perfectly safe on the West Coast. Leaving the Brotherhood to do what they do, and teaching him the values of what is important. Instead of sending him to the Brotherhood of Charity in a region that has been notoriously rife with danger.

I don't see it as a problem that the BoS were hardly present in FO2. The BoS aren't what makes Fallout, they're just another faction. Yet Bethesda messed up their own timeline just so they could have a BoS faction, because it 'would be cool' no doubt. That is why they screwed the ending, afterall.

This new BoS should die out, lacking the support of the mainland BoS who have all their bases of operations firmly set in stone. Sure this new BoS can be a charity organisation, but they'll soon fall behind due to their altered priorities. However I doubt Beth will take this into consideration, they rarely consider anything.

If the Brotherhood of Steel were "just another faction" in the Fallout universe, then why in the two spin offs to the main franchise have they been the central focus?

Seriously, dismissing the Brotherhood as "just another faction" is pretty ignorant of the fact that since the beginning, the Brotherhood have been the in-thing for the Fallout setting. Just as much as Vaults and Pipboys, really, the Brotherhood is Fallout's poster children.

And let's be completely fair. If the Brotherhood hadn't made an appearance in Fallout 3, the old guard would have been disappointed, at best.

What? They are just another faction, they have a 'omfg that's so kool' factor so it's natural that gamers would put more of an emphiasis on them. Spin-offs are just that, spin-offs, are you to say Fallout 3 was a spin-off? Well, some of us would actually agree to that Spin-offs have often been regarded as semi-canon because a)they step on already established canon and b)they don't make enough sense to be taken seriously...hm..

Well you can't speak for the..old guard? is that what we're being called now Anyway, I can't speak for them either. All I know is, I would have liked to have seen the BoS in a full 3D interactive environment, if only just to see it. But it could have at least been a BoS I would have appreciated. I don't see why the BoS needed to be turned into a benevolent faction for the people. It's not unknown for the BoS to impose psuedo-benevolence to get what they want, they help and get helped, everyone wins. Hell that would have been enough reason for them to advance on the memorial in the pinacle of FO3's story, they would jump at the chance to get their hands on the reignited project purity. It was BoS, but it wasn't. Ok we had the Outcasts, but what role did they play really? They were just a bunch of guys with a real bad attitude. Hardly a tribute to the real BoS. They could have had alot more purpose within the confines of FO3. Or none at all.

You could call me "old guard" and I was disappointed that they appeared, and before they were announced, I was hoping that they wouldn't. And I very much hope they won't in FO4. And I know many others that think the same.

I was hoping for new, unique power armored factions on the East Coast, not the BoS being transplanted there. There should be other factions descended from the military all around the States, not just the BoS and the Enclave ad nauseum.

It's fair to say the BoS served their purpose a long time ago. Whether they're depicted in-game or not doesn't mean they can't be the result of flavour and events elsewhere. BoS ran the show in FO1, FO2 offered another tech-superiority (which I also believe, don't need to keep being brought into the picture). And Tactics gave us an inside look into the BoS and the way they do things. They were pretty much milked before FO3. If the Fallout world truly is picking itself up (the core region at least) then it's easy to throw other factions in to make things fresh.

In this respect. FO3 seemed no more than a montage of the series from a 3D FPP perspective. Which is nice to look at, but serves little purpose beyond that. I'd like FO4 to be an evolution of the series, than an evolution of perspective. And for that, BoS emphasis needs to go. They don't always have to be tied in so firmly with the protagonist.

Yup, I wouldn't mind some BoS presence so much, but I don't like the main plot being so focused on the BoS again in FO3, just like in the spin-offs, and unlike FO1, FO2 and VB.

Don't I know it.

You missed my point.

Beth was careful not to step on the toes of Western canon in FO3. Past tense. They brought over the Brotherhood, Enclave, and even have their own source of Super Mutants. They severed all ties to the West, so that they'll be free to create their own lore. I said this in response to the theory that the Western Brotherhood is no more. There's no evidence to this because Beth didn't say anything concrete about the state of the West.

---

Yup. I foresee the Maxson kid is going to grow up and champion Beth's version of the Brotherhood. A predictable cliche.

---

I didn't mind the appearance of the Brotherhood out East. I'm a fan of Fallout and the Brotherhood in particular. When I first read the news about the Brotherhood heading to the Pentagon to gather military tech, it seemed like logical Brotherhood behavior to me. But I wasn't thrilled about their complete change of character. Even the MWBOS, which was open to new recruits was far from benevolent. It wasn't beneath them to take slaves and treat their new recruits as second class citizens. To me, that was still in keeping with the Brotherhood persona.

It's as if Beth didn't know how to write anti-hero characters and decided to make them completely good because it would be easier. I'm not even too thrilled about their depiction of the Outcasts in The Pitt. Characterizing them as technology starved thugs, when there was way more to them than that. People forget that despite being xenophobic, selfish [censored]s, they still saved the wasteland plenty of times. I've said it before in another thread, but they stood out for me among the dozens of Jedis, X-men, and Justice Leagues who use their powers to protect the innocent. The Brotherhood helped the wasteland, but not for completely benevolent reasons. They were unique and refreshing that way.

But Beth has gone and made them ho-hum fantasy knights in shining armor. Which we have so much of. Fine. They own the lore now. They can take the EBOS is any direction they want. But in relation to my first paragraph, I hope they don't ruin my memories of the WBOS and MWBOS by saying that they're dead or that they had a change of heart too.

Thing is, the BoS can't really stay selfish "anti-heroes" and neutral as civilization starts to recover around them. If they're active in grabbing whatever old tech they can and not letting anyone else have it, they either become an obstacle or full-fledged antagonists (hinted at in VB docs). If they're non-active/isolationist, they become irrelevant (as in F2).

IMO, they need to either wake up and realize that this is the day they've been waiting and preparing for, and start helping with the rebuilding, or get out of the way of those who are.

There are ways to do this without making them complete goody-goodies.

Did they not drive off the mutant force in FO1? They just needed substantial proof before sending forces out. The good epilogue says that they became a major research and development house during the conflict. They aided the wasteland without "selling out" if you will.

MWBOS could very well be considered bad guys from a certain point of view. In one mission, they slaughtered the citizens of Macomb. But in the end, they defeated the Robot forces.

Sure, they share some of the ideals of the EBOS. But the interaction and recruitment of outsiders was just a means to an end. They offered protection in exchange for supplies and manpower and still maintained their air of superiority over the wastelanders.

There's a great line that's spoken by one of the first bosses where he compares the BOS to Raiders. "We both take what they want from these savages. If you think your cause is any less selfish than ours, you're sadly mistaken." Awesome. In post-apocalyptia there should be no "good" factions.

An anti-heroic BOS fits in better with the post-apocalyptic setting. The dog-eat-dog nature of the wasteland forces them to do morally questionable acts, but they serve the greater good in the end.

By comparison, just because the Lone Wanderer was James' son (and thus, the protagonist), Lyons offers him tech and training on a whim. And if the player had blown up Megaton in the past or some other dastardly thing, it just makes them look naive and stupid.

I'd expect the Brotherhood would understand the significance of their mission would only be amplified as civilisation rebuilt itself. They don't believe tech should be in the hands of anyone, so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Whether it's agreeable or not isn't the point, it's what they fervently believe. I'd suspect they'd become more covert as other powers came to be around them, ? la FO2. On a flipside they could be alot more prominent in building their own sphere of influence, ? la Tactics. I think they could be a good thing for the wasteland, they're resourceful and powerful, and could easily be merced in exchange for any tech they would deem significant for their services. The BoS would be a good friend to have, and I reckon even a faction like the NCR would find a use for them.

Where does everyone get the idea that the Eastern Brotherhood is completely goodie-goodie? Yeah, the Brotherhood is stemming the Super Mutant threat, but it's not like Lyons is really interacting with the natives much. Three Dog is his mouthpiece, sure, but the least Three Dog can do is provide lip service to the Brotherhood members that guard his precious studio (Because the studio gives them a observation post to Super Mutant activity within the D.C. Ruins).

The reason Lyons allows you training and tech is because in addition to the Super Mutants, now the Enclave have shown up again. Lyons found himself pressed between a rock and a hard place. He's also faced with a Wastelander that managed to take on the Enclave and get civilians to safety. That means they can take care of themselves, and that makes them potential recruitment fodder.

And finally, the Scourge of the Pitt is probably the biggest example of Lyons' Brotherhood being "morally gray". Kodiak might consider the Brotherhood saintly for rescuing him from that place, but if you actually listen to what they were doing, it's kinda barbaric. They literally raided the non-mutated children and pressed them into service with the Brotherhood - after slaughtering the rest of their "mutant" family.

That's considered being a Knight in shining armor? Yeah, the Pitt is a cesspool, but that's still pretty harsh.

EDIT: Loaded up Fallout 3 and went poking around the Citadel. Checked the Maxson Terminal in the Library and this is what the entry has about him:

"Recent internal conflicts amongst the Western Brotherhood of Steel created an unsafe environment for the child. It was believed the Citadel - despite being located in hostile territory - would increase his probability for survival."

So that certainly supports the theory that something's up, in the West.

Yeah that makes sense but i think by conflict they ment disagreements with other council members rather then one of the forces out there i.e one council member kidnapps maxton and using for ransom, furthers whatever he wants done in the BoS.

Lyons boycotted his primary missions and goals to help the people of D.C. Putting the preservation of the common man above all else. That's why they're 'goodie goodie'. The real BoS would also make sure you earned your PA one way or another. Not give it to you by association and then allow you to pilfer their entire compound of all the equipment you can carry. The Lone Wanderer might have all the makings of a sterling recruit, but he/she still essentially did nothing to earn his/her training and PA. Which suits Lyon's weaker judgment perfectly.

The Scourge was an expedition run whilst Lyons was on his way to the Citadel from Lost Hills, they hadn't even reached the D.C ruins by that point, and hadn't gone native, they were the real BoS at that point. As unlike a knight in shining armour as I would expect the BoS to be, and they got something out of it too, recruits.

It annoys me how Bethesda think a line of text justifies a nonsensical decision. There's no flavour behind it, no backstory, just a rushed plot device to get Maxon to D.C. Besides, I doubt the real BoS would send Arthur to D.C knee deep in enemy territory to a native BoS.

Thanks Chris. All my thoughts exactly.

I'll add that on the topic of protection against Raiders and Super Mutants, Manya says that she wishes that the Brotherhood of Steel fellers hadn't fallen on such hard times. Before the events of FO3, they've been playing benevolent protectors to the wasteland for some time now, and are known throughout the capital wasteland as such.

Yeah, fighting your way through a host of Enclave soldiers (Who have better equipment then the BoS, East or West) while escorting civilian survivors certainly doesn't merit training in Power Armor.

Seriously, give me the Glow any day of the week. That kind of initiation would have been as if Matthew from Fallout 2 told me to obtain the Vertibird Plans by stripping to my skivvies and streaking through Narravo.



Lyons wasn't native at the time of the transfer (or, at least, he hadn't openly gone native yet). As for it being nonsensical...given in Van Buren it had the Brotherhood fighting a stalemated war against the NCR (and given Aurthur's parents are both dead under unknown circumstances), I dunno. Seems like reason enough to get the Maxson heir the hell out of dodge, to me.

Not to mention it's funny to watch the Paladins hassle Maxson in the halls of the Citadel.

The BOS are not hunters, nor farmers. They need a supply line to keep fed. Building goodwill with the locals helps them keep fed. I dont see any conflict there.... Lyons has but medium-long term survival above the long term technological gain... Which by no means have the abandoned (all that interest in that Giant robot, collecting books, etc).

No, Lyons' Brotherhood have definitely "Gone Native" compared to the rest of the Brotherhood. Openly recruiting Wastelanders while aiding nearby communities, and actively engaging in warfare with the local Mutant Population?

I don't think anyone's disagreeing Lyons strayed from the path of the Brotherhood. I think the argument now is whether that change was a good one or not. Using the giant robot as an example, I don't think the Western Elders would have approved in the way it was used.