... like the original Brotherhood, at the Lost Hills Bunker and under the command of High Elder John Maxson, did? With the original Vault Dweller, against the Master's super-mutants? Helping protect the Hub and other communities in the area?

...

Yeah, that is so out of character for the Brotherhood. They've never done anything remotely like that. Have they? <_<

Well no, it wouldn't. It's through Lyon's weak judgement that such a selfless act would reward you PA and training without even being an initiate. At least the initiations on the west coast emphasised doing something for the Brotherhood. And, provided you were smart, didn't involve bloodshed.

From what I know based on the timeline, Lyons setup operations in D.C in 2255, and Arthur was born in 2267, a whole 12 years after. Project Purity was abandoned in 2258, which Lyons offered support to, and abandoned due to dwindling manpower, and had done so before James and the team did. Lyons had evidently gone native not 3 years after arriving at the Citadel, which wouldn't surprise me as they wouldn't have sat around for 12 years at the very least.


Well scribes have to have a hobby too, hell I'd bet some of the scribes stayed against their better judgement just so they could work on Prime. It would have been the knights and paladins that would have deserted before anyone, as they were the ones that retrieved the tech, the scribes just stay back and study what they're brought. They're standing within the Brotherhood wouldn't get in the way of their thirst for knowledge. As for tech gain, they seem to be losing most of it to the Mutants at the Mall.


If it is in their best interest, they'll be your best friend. They used the Vault Dweller, whether or not he/she used them at the same time is irrelevant, as long as they got what they wanted aswell, who's compaining. The Mutants would have wiped them out just the same as everyone else, these aren't stupid, chaotic D.C mutants we're talking about here, we're talking about an army that was organised with intelligent leadership. It was in Lost Hills' interest of their own survival that the army was stopped.

As for protecting other communities, I don't know where you got that idea from.

They protected the Hub from the Vipers only after Maxson II was killed by them.

It's not about skill. It's about the other facets of the Brotherhood's former personality. Tech worship and secrecy. Here's the Lone Wanderer, not even an initiate and they open themselves up to him with nothing to go on except the fact that he's James' son. As if morality was genetic. If he ends up injecting FEV into the water supply, Lyons has no one to blame but himself for not taking all the necessary precautions.




Neither were the MWBOS.

For all their inconsistencies with lore, Tactics still managed to expand the Brotherhood's policies regarding outsiders while maintaining their personalities as selfish, technology worshiping bigots. I wish Beth went this way as well if they wanted to take the 'going native' route.




What did I say? They fought the Super Mutant armies and became a major research and development hub during the conflict. But only after they had evidence that the Super Mutants posed a threat to them as well, not because they wanted to protect the innocent. Read the old posts before you get all sarcastic.

Anyway, getting a bit tired of the back and forth, because we know where each of us stands. Bottom line: is it good or bad?

Well, obviously I hate it. Instead of an organization, think of the Brotherhood as a single character. For three games he's been the gruff, morally questionable, loner and bigot who worships technology and only comes to someone's aid if it would benefit him in the long run. He's content to watch someone die, otherwise.

Game four by a different developer comes out, and he's suddenly kind, generous, and rushes to people's aid because he wants to use his powers for good. Whether this is good or bad is subjective. All I know is that everything that I used to like about the BOS has been stripped away. Asking me to accept this new incarnation of the BOS is crap.

The Brotherhood have joined the ranks of Spartans and Gears as the next marketable power armored marines that fight to save humanity. Boring.

IMO, fixed that for you.

kaeleb:

This may comes as a shock, but some people (possibly even most) do not enjoy playing games (watching movies, reading books, etc) where "everyone's a [censored]. EVERYONE."

Heck, look at all the discussion threads about the Pitt's main questline not having a clear moral choice.

OH MY GOD! WHAT A SHOCKER!

Like I don't? When I want a good vs. evil story I watch Star Wars or play Oblivion, or any one of thousands of franchises that sell stories about valiant heroes fighting against malevolent villains. When I want moral choice and morally ambiguous characters, I play Fallout.

But thanks for that. Now I can dismiss all those theories that the BOS's change of heart has to do with survival, building rapport with the locals, Maxson's legacy, or anything else that exists within the Fallout universe. They had a change of heart because it's marketable. Thanks for telling it like it is.

I disagree there, I think the MWBOS were more removed from the Original BOS than Bethesda's. The MWBOS turned into a power-grabbing organisation looking to dominate the people in its area. They accepted Ghouls, Mutants, and even creatures that had no relationship with humanity into their ranks.

However, the MWBOS had a different answer to the same question - How to ensure long term structural survival - Manpower and food. They created a fudal culture with themselves at the top. The EBOS created a semi-removed from society warrior cult, that didnt go for the same extreme measures as the MWBOS.

Okay. That point of view I can understand.

A lot can be achieved by making some actual valid points and cutting the sarcasm out. <_<

Indeed. When we look at the differences between the Eastern and Western chapters of the Brotherhood, the overall goals aren't that dissimilar, it's just the ways they go about it are different.

The Eastern Brotherhood wanted to secure the Citadel (And what was located within the Citadel) as well as continue to locate technology. The Super Mutants were and are searching for something in the D.C. Ruins, which is alarmingly close to the Citadel itself. Given the nature of the prize of the Citadel, I can't fault Lyons decision to push back the Super Mutants.

However, it's obvious Lyons decided to take this one step further, by assisting all the outlying Wasteland, in the attempt to make the region stable enough that the Brotherhood could continue its primary mission relatively peacefully, with minimal loss of life.


It's tough to decide what the Western Brotherhood would do in similar situations, because there was nothing quite like what the Eastern chapter found beneath the Pentagon, and they didn't face the constant threat of Super Mutant incursion since it's virtually impossible to stage a successful assault on the Lost Hills Bunker since the Elevator can only hold so many at once. Also the Lost Hills Bunker is a lot more removed from "Civilization" then the Citadel is, so it's easier to be Xenophobic and "Elitist" when you don't witness the suffering of the Wasteland every day.

Really, the Lost Hills Bunker provided the Brotherhood of Steel the same kind of isolation that a Vault would have.

This from someone with a set of quotes in his sig that imply that Fallout 3's protagonist (and by extension, the rest of the game) is stupid compared to the clearly superior original. I think you have something in your eye...

So we're going for personal attacks now in lieu of valid points?

I won't get dragged into this off topic discussion. Think what you want.

Indeed they were removed, but this was an intentional decision by the Lost Hills faction. The MWBoS wanted to accept tribals into the ranks, whereas Lost Hills wanted to remain 'pure' so put some distance between them, ordering them to wipe out the remnants of the Master's army. The only reason Lost Hills was so xenophobic toward Mutants and Ghouls alike is because the Master's army set the impression on which all other mutants would be judged, and the ghouls that scavenged the West Tek are the reason the BoS have disdain for them too. But beyond that, there's no reason why any prejudice would endure. So it's no surprise the expansionist MWBoS sought assistance from them also.

If the fleet wasn't so unfortunate as to get downed and scattered by the electrical storm, there would have been little reason for them to employ a means for survival in the first place, it was this blunder that forced them to work with the local populous and from there they became self-sufficient.


EBoS secured the Citadel because of what they found there, and the structure had the makings of a fortress, evidently. They would have continued to locate technology had Lyons not allocated his manpower into the preservation of civilian ideals such as Project Purity, and then sparked a feud within his own ranks and lost vital manpower and tech because of the ill assessment of his goals. It wasn't then, a case of assisting the local populous in the scheme of BoS's primary mission in the region. There is no hint of this in D.C as all the BoS are simply policing the mall and GNR. A scribe with a couple of bobyguards in a library hardly proves any prolonging resolve in the preservation of knowledge and technology.

Lyons lost more able men and women by reassessing his goals through bloodshed and mutiny than if he had adhered to a strict and methodical scouring of key locations to get what they needed so they could retreat safely within the confines of the Citadel and do what they set out to do in the first place. At least if this primary achievement was satisfied, maybe the appeal of outside help wouldn't have been such a farsight, but it would still be a purely quid pro quo scenario, and definitely not what Lyons had intended.

It was also seemingly impossible to stage an assault on the Citadel, it was just as secure as any bunker, and the BoS within seemed more than safe, especially when you compare them to the minced squads based in and around the D.C ruins themselves. Lost Hills was as removed as they wanted to be, and this could have been an option for Lyons if he chose it.

To be fair, Project Purity would have benefited the Brotherhood as much as the people of the Capital Wasteland. A source of clean water independent of filtration would have eased the minds of many Paladins and Knights. As for the schism, Project Purity had nothing to do with that. By all accounts, the whole thing is the result of Lyons and Casdin's own egos getting in the way of compromises.



Manya in Megaton would prove otherwise, given her dialogue specifically mentions how it was a pity the Brotherhood had fallen on hard times, thus suggesting that at some point earlier, the Brotherhood had a larger influence in the Capital Wasteland.

As for the Arlington Library, I'm shocked Lyons has the manpower even for that. Since the break with the Outcasts, Lyons can barely keep up his assaults on the Super Mutants. Whether Lyons is in the right or wrong, the Outcasts aren't exactly smelling like roses either. Those that left the Citadel basically left their brothers and sisters to die while they do what? Scrounge around old parking lots while the local Wasteland population brings them tech?



Huh, must be a difference in game experiences then. Every time I've visited the Citadel (Both before and after the Waters of Life quest) the place has been under attack by a group of four to six Super Mutants.

EDIT: Since I can't seem to send him a PM, I hope kaeleb will forgive me for publicly apologizing to him for assuming, from an earlier revision of his sig, that he was one of the many kneejerk haters of Bethesda's F3 I've encountered on this and other boards. I was wrong there and I'm sorry. (Also, I don't have a real long forum memory and had completely forgotten about our previous contact.)

Back on topic, then.

IMO, as civilization begins to recover around them, a completely selfish and aloof Brotherhood becomes increasingly untenable. Other factions will grow to a position where they can challenge the BoS on equal, nearly equal, or even superior footing. And whether they want to enlist the BoS as allies, to eliminate them as potential enemies, or just want the huge hoard of tech they've been gathering and sitting on for the past century or two, there will be efforts to bring them into the rest of the world. They will not be able to keep dictating terms ("any tech goodies you have, we'll be taking; otherwise, [censored] off") from a position of strength. So they're going to either have to make a deal with someone, or give up and retreat entirely into isolationism - "sealing the Vault", as it were. (And even that might not save them, if someone really wants what they've got.)

They arn't just policing he mall and GNR, I remember I was exploring sometime in my really early levels like 5 or 6 and I wandered from that old lady on the dock near that shack who sells stuff along the river near the super duper mart, across into the outskirts of DC and I got jumped by a cent. and 3 raiders and a patrol of 3 BoS one with a gatling gun another with a flame thrower and the third with a laser rifle saved my ass.

You sure those weren't Outcasts? I know from my own gameplay experience that Outcasts tend to show up in that area quite frequently. I don't think I've ever encountered just a straight Brotherhood Patrol that wasn't scripted in some fashion.

The BoS just sticking to collecting technology 'to save humanity' whilst ignoring humanity being wiped out by Super Mutants would make them no better than the Enclave. Once they'd decide to put their collected technology to use, there'd be no humanity left, or humanity would already have rebuilt and not need the BoS at all.

One scribe & five soldiers, no big deal.

"to save humanity" isn't what it appears to be. They don't believe in rebuilding civilisation. They are 'saving humanity' by securing all the tech to prevent the mistakes of the great war. Whilst their effort maybe futile, they seem to believe it's the correct course of action. Though if there is no place for a BoS as civilisation builds, then maybe they should go. It would either be very climactic, or they'd simply go covert and disappear, leaving the other disbanded factions to rebuild the way they see fit, whilst retaining the name of a faction who's original ideals are long gone.

I'd also say five soliders is a very big deal. There less BoS at GNR, and there are probably about the same amount patrolling the Mall.

So once they get the tech, do they burn, er, destroy it for the good of all? Oh, right, they keep it, because only they are worthy and capable of using it responsibly. *snort*

"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master." - Pravin Lal, Alpha Centauri

They hoard it, study it, augment it, create their own, archive it, store it, use it. As long as it's theirs. They have the right attitude though, it was tech that destroyed the world in the first place afterall, they're just a little too ambitious. It also doesn't mean that they wouldn't deem other people worthy of the tech, though people like that are a rare exception, the Vault Dweller being one of the few examples of Lost Hills acceptance. And being descended of military origin, they probably do believe they are the only ones capable of using tech responsibly.

That's Commissioner Pravin Lal to you And the U.N broke up in Fallout

So let's keep everyone at a medieval tech level forever, so there won't be another atomic war! Instead, they can die of hunger and disease and childbirth and plain ol' guns and knives and pointy sticks... while the Brothers sit comfy in their air-conditioned bunker and watch it all on CCTV.

(And then, as the Chinese emperors learned when they tried to manage their own people's technological progress, the Enclave foreign devils show up on your doorstep with even spiffier toys and conquer the realm.)

EDIT: But then, why am I surprised, really? These are the same folks who thought it was a great joke to send people off to die in a radioactive pit (if they made it that far).

No.

It was greed that destroyed the world.

In the United States, fusion power was a reality. No gas stations, no gas-driven cars, no fossil-fuel-burning power plants. The entire United States Economy had switched to fusion power. And we weren't going to share with "those damned commies", not without charging an arm, a leg, and the firstborn child from EVERY last person living in China. That is what backed China into a corner, and pretty much forced them to go to war against the U.S.

So, what destroyed the world?

Greed, and a failure to SHARE technology ... that's what.

The description of the BoS in this thread makes the Enclave seem sympathetic. I'm actually feeling compelled now to wipe out the Citadel.

abnaxus: No, just Fort Independence/the Outcasts. The ones in the Citadel have actually grown a conscience and/or sense of social responsibility, which makes them pariahs and deserters among their former comrades.