Perhaps not as much as you would think, but the actual definition of a mage is rather ambiguous, the nature of magic too. Palinal, who you mentioned, was called a sorceror, in addition to other things.

What I described isn't really meta-gaming, but, ironically, in tes games and in tes lore, especially in lore in fact, "meta-gaming" is kind of a big part of it. In a sense a lot of the supernatural background to the games themselves are the battles between various meta-gamers, so perhaps the term is rather appropriate here.

If I was to try and explain it another way, I would suggest looking at the magical route as a tool kit of sorts which easily provides more options in game and in universe than most other if not all other approaches. The potentially immense power of magic compared to a strong sword arm or a well placed arrow, which are still viable in their own right, seems totally in-game and in-lore justifiable, it should simply be harder to master than most other things.

The impression I get from the games is that mages and magic users tend to be rarer, not because there are better options, but because the magical path requires a lot of time, patience. research and trial and error. Not to mention intelligence. It's a long, winding and tricky path that very few seem to be able to walk but few can avoid if they want to become powerful.

It's for this reason that I, along with the other guy, would like to see magic be much more than just some alternative to an axe or sword, the power should be potentially immense but very hard to acquire.

I see it like different shades of magic. There is ancient magic, the regular magic we know and the higher magic of the divine.

The thu'um at least conventionally, is just another form of magic, though a pretty powerful one, seemingly leaning towards that "higher magic" type than others. Basically, the more into it you the player or the in-game characters get, the more magical their means seem to become, or at least the more they start to know about magic.

A logical problem that should be solved for the sake of the game should be one addressed the reason for the persistence of more conventional, primitive means of getting things done. Magic is obviously the better tool kit, so why is it that governments with conventional armies seem to dominate the political sphere?

I'd suggest that it's not because magic is not much better than a sharp sword or a well designed contract or law, but because magic is by its nature harder to really figure out for mortals and those who get really good at it are either overwhelmed by numbers, taken down by competition or simply find themselves doing other things because they have learned to escape the rat race that demands the attentions of so many others.

Because those "conventional" armies tend to have quite a lot of battlemages. Magic is pretty much always a big factor in the major wars of Tamriel's history. These large armies may be conventional, but they aren't mundane, they usually have magic at their disposal. Most of that magic isn't as big or flashy as some of the more powerful spells; things like conjured weapons/armor, healing, 'skin' spells and wards, for instance aren't going to wipe out an entire army, but they will be pretty darn useful in a battle between two armies.

^^But that's the problem. Magic isn't difficult for the laymen to learn though in any capacity, and its utility is not all that different from a sharpened sword, ax, or what equipment you have on you. The only time you start getting into the esoteric stuff you mention is when you're dealing with real freaks of nature, whom only the PC's and the truly gifted fall under. There isn't a real need to change how magic progresses in game since its pretty accurate to how most in Tamriel would go about it, only saving the super flashy stuff for when you're actually beyond the norm, much like any other skill.

The only real limit that can hamper the ability to learn magic is not that its difficult to learn and requires years of devotion and practice (At least, no more then it would take to train and be considered great at any other skill), but social structure and societal norms of the place you're in.

Khajiit speak? Sorry, I fall from the clouds, I don't know anything about that! Do you mean the accent or a real fictional language use by that race? (anyway, Khajiit rule!)

Khajiit speak in that the responses for the PC reflect some Khajiiti verbal tics. Though not all Khajiit actually speak with on either, Skyrim aside.

Honestly, I think this makes sense, and it's not all that different from writing. 99.999% of advlt humans are and have been able to write, but societal structure kept the majority of people in ancient times from learning to write.

To be fair, if I were to make my own Elder Scrolls like universe I would make magic to require a lot of effort, patience and time, much like The Berserker said. But in TES, magic appears to be less widespread than it could be mostly because of the reasons Dargor mentioned.

Well, less wide spread in places like Skyrim and Hammerfell. And hell, even the prior still practices magic in the form of "witch-warriors", but that's the "good" kind of magic the Nords are fine and dandy with. Magic on the whole is far more common and prolific in places like High Rock, the Niben, Summerset, where its institutionalized and fairly accessible, provided you have either talent, coin, or familial connections.

The individuals temperament and "talent" also goes a long way. As you said, it could take tons of effort, practice, and general training for someone who wasn't particularly good or have a knack for it to become a "good" mage. But then you have those that take to it in no time and all and sore beyond their peers in record time, simply because that kind of stuff is easy for them.

Watching som let's play videos about Skyrim, it comes to my mind there are not many sea/lake/river monsters or enemies of any sort. Just slaughterfish. A wider variety could be interesting. Just a thought, though.

Not as many battlemages as they have regular combat infantry and cavalry etc and can you think of an army made up of shalidor level mages?

Given the advantages of the range of magical applications, you have to almost wonder why people even bother with bows, swords, armour, etc. In practice in game I've heard that TESO is having a bit of a problem where mages are pretty much dominating PVP combat.

If being a mage is just as simple as picking up a sword, why, with its inherent advantages, are not all armies made up of mages?

For me the only justifiable answer, which seems to be hinted at in the lore, is that magic is markedly more complicated and dangerous, so much so that there were powerful mages, the ones who could fight armies single handedly, who wanted to keep magic out of the mainstream.

A bit of an alternative inquiry could be made where one poses the question: If magic is not much or at all inherently better than conventional means of doing things, then why even bother with it?

You ever heard of that really effective 24/7 armor spell? It's called "wearing armour".

The lore is rather sketchy on how magic is actually learned, but some tomes do imply that it can be tricky and dangerous to learn and use magic. Some form of research also appears to be a big part of figuring out new spells and applications for magic, after all, just what exactly are these mages studying and researching all the time? In Morrowind, in the game, intelligence and willpower were factors determining your ability to use the spells and(I think) make spells - which feels more in keeping with the lore tbh.

Perhaps the way spells are acquired is a big part of the problem here. Clicking a book and "spell learned" seems a little off, even if you don't have enough magicka to use it. Imagine if learning and discovering spells was a bit more of a complicated process similar to the way alchemy was handled (which, to be fair, I think was pretty good). That would definitely be in keeping with the image of the wizard experimenting with new spells (which was depicted in skyrim's college quests).

To me, magic just isn't the same thing as swinging an axe around, there is a lot of room for improvement and it could be handled in a more authentic and engrossing way.

You mention the talented and the freaks of nature, which is kind of what I am getting at. Some magic users seem to have insane amounts of power, to the point it isn't even funny. Can you think of a simple warrior or thief, without magical assistance, who pulls off the kind of stuff the powerful mages pull off?

The mention of social structure is interesting though. Why do some groups of people have more magical aptitude for magic and others dont? or more open minded approaches to magic while others dont?

In the game, I get the impression that magic is simply less intuitive to a lot of people in the game, with the Altmer being something of an exception. Physically picking things up and using kinetic and potential energy, at times through various mechanical and technological means, seems to be the way they approach things, probably because such means are more obviously, whereas magical means are less obvious to them, more mysterious, esoteric and probably as a consequence of this, harder to understand and more dangerous, and thus better to be avoided or treated with high caution.

If this is true, which it could be, I think it does open up an interesting amount of room for a technology vs magic issue. I've thought it to kind of interesting that humans appear to be more like dwemer in the way they seem to prefer technological means of getting things done. The only other crossbows in the games other than those of the dwemer, appear to be man-made. The other elves seem to naturally use magic or harmonious means of getting things done.

Anyway, I feel I've ranted enough. All I'm trying to say is I'd like to see a little more thought be put into the nature and use of magic in the games, rather than have magic treated as basically a more colorful way of doing the same thing a bow or sword does. Magic is unique and special and should be treated as such. Preferably.

That's the thing though. In Tamriel, it really isn't that special for the vast majority of things. Magic is intrinsically connected to many facets of the setting, and goes far beyond the standard "Powerful hermit living in a tower" archtype. Its institutionalized. Its militarized. Hell, its probably commercialized in some places. Its fairly easy to pick up provided you have talent and pass the first hurdle of figuring out how to use the innate magicka within you, and depending where you live, seeing very basic magic in the streets is probably a common sight. The stuff you're referring to like Shalidor, the Psijics, Mannimarco, are not powerful or famous because of the fact that they use magic, but rather that they're own natural talent, obsessions, and unique understanding of the Aubris propels them to those feats. A person could litteraly spend centuries in the craft and never even begin to touch what they were capable of. Their talent and abilities go beyond mere practice and understanding, much like the player characters.

If we're being technical, I don't consider anyone who just happens to know a few spells and utilize them thusly as a mage.Hell, even if they know a lot of spells and are good at it. Mages to me are those that focus solely on the pursuit of magical ability and understanding and are "all in" so to speak. Anyone else may have the ability to conjure spells even to the extreme degree, but for obviously different reasons depending on what they're going after. Its all about temperament and the reason they picked up magic.

Enough ranting though! Back on topic: Magic as is for the moment is...alright. I agree with you though, reading a book and magically knowing all types of spells doesn't quite cut it. The ability to read, discern, and learn new spell affects and then actually creating spells for them would be interesting and seems like a reasonable venture. For instance, the PC might be able to pick up a few basic spells on their own provided their intelligence and skill level is high enough, but others would require more training and investment to actually pull off. You could also become very good at those basic spells as well, so that they can actually remain relevant in some capacity throughout the game, but being a truly great magical character would require training and effort in order to learn spells and abilities, rather then waiting to level up so you're magicka pool can cast them.

Exactly. Magic is an intrinsic part of the world. Everyone has some amount of magicka that they can tap into with just a tiny bit of training to cast an ordinary spell. Because most people who don't train only have a very limited amount of magicka at their disposal, they can only cast one or two extremely basic spells before they're tapped out. That means that using mundane tools and weapons are simply far more efficient for most people, since they don't have the magicka reserves to cast a lot of spells or maintain the ones they can cast for very long.

It's not like the great mages like Shalidor never used any sort of mundane tools at all in their lives; so why should the greatest warriors or thieves like the grey fox or Talos not be allowed to use any magical tools? Yeah, in Skyrim where traditional magic is looked down upon or feared by the general public magic is going to seem particularly special, but that's mostly a Nord thing, and even they have the Thu'um which they all revere despite it essentially being magic. Magic isn't rare at all in Tamriel like it is in settings like LotR, so there's really no need to treat it as such. The truly gifted mages like Shalidor or Mannimarco are rare and spectacular, of course, but that doesn't mean all magic should be.

I would like to see an improvement of stealth mechanics and not just leave it at " crouching " and moving slowly. Since we had an option of warpaints in Skyrim I always thought why camouflage was never implemented. While chameleon spell somewhat covers this, I think it would be neat if you could actually buy dyes inside the game and apply them to your character in order to impersonate a particular environment. Sorta like junglish green/brown, or white for snow, etc. Little details like that really help with the rpg experience.

Also, I think water stealth could be added as well, or be a trait/ability exclusive to Argonians, since they are afterall more agile in water as their chosen habitat than on land. As such, I think they should move double the speed then on ground and have an option of launching attacks/fighting while waiting underwater.

It's pretty much a way to improve and flesh out current races than just to add new ones.

I really like the ideas you have. I'm a bit tired so hopefully I don't mix something up here, but if I do forgive me.

Taking what Dargor said into consideration, I would still argue as you do that mages are typically the most powerful beings in any given age, but there are certainly many varieties of magics that can confer power without dabbling directly in spell casting (the Dragonborn being a prime example in my mind). That said, I would still greatly appreciate if they continued to incorporate magic into melee combat in ways that move us from the hard distinction between casting ranged spells and switching to melee. This not only makes hybrid play more enjoyable, but it opens up more ways to hopefully mix all the various forms of gameplay in ways that provide for more interesting and tactical choices.

Again, aesthetically, I think it is important to have that arch-typical mage that is the scholar, but incorporating the idea of the warrior-scholar into the gameplay would be something that I think would ignite a lot of fan interest, especially considering that the spellsword/battlemage hybrids are probably the most played. What does this look like practically? I think it means finding a way to remove the hard transition between melee and spellcasting as I said before. So, either one or several hotkeys that can be mapped with spells that can be utilized mid-combat in different ways depending on when cast. Ideally, it would also mean restructuring the spell trees, providing more martial focused magic skills and abilities that would allow one to differentiate between being a hard caster and a hybrid. I think the idea of a monk probably comes as close to summarizing the whole idea, as berserker said.

I always thought the fact that all classes (since Morrowind at least) having magicka was an indication of the primacy of magic in Tamriel. My hope is that magic is highlighted more in the game and that we may even see the ability for characters to be magic inept. I appreciated in Skyrim how the Nords distrust of magic was very pronounced, but it would be intriguing to see how the masses incorporate magic into their lives. For instance, the boy in Solitude who would ask to be made invisible, was a nice touch, but my favorite would be the hunter you meet outside that cave near Falkreath. Using a touch healing spell, you can mend him and that to me was something I really desired more of. Combat magic is great but the non-combat applications would be well served by being fleshed out.

Lest I get too far off track, I just want to wrap up by saying that, in addition to making magic more hybrid-friendly and hopefully implementing some of the ideas berserker and me talked about, I would really like to see the interactions in the game world that I was talking about above. Using the radiant quests as a backbone, I think it would make the game world much more compelling if we saw interactions pop up based upon what schools of magic you master. This would ideally be reputation or renown based, assuming we see such a system return, and it would involve the opportunity to have richer interactions with the denizens of whatever province we happen to be in.

As a concrete example, let's say you have an adept skill level (50+) in Restoration. As you approach a settlement, you notice smoke on the horizon and drawing upon it, you recognize it has been ransacked. The few survivors left are tending to the wounded. Several options are now available. Based upon your previous reputation, you may be a sight for sore eyes or possibly an evil omen. You can choose to execute the rest of the villagers, you can try to extort them for any hidden goods they may have left (and then kill them anyway), you can pass by without getting involved, or you could lend a hand and heal all of the wounded. Afterwards, another radiant task may be offered where you can go and hunt down the people responsible for this crime. Doing so would then net you standing with whatever landlord those people were under protection of or however the hierarchy works.

At any rate, that's just an idea that I'm sure has been kicked around before. I would just like to see more ways to use our skills that could be definitive of our character. Restoration is a very peaceful school of magic (undead spells aside) so it is a no brainer, but I think you could easily draw up scenarios for Illusion, Conjuration, and even non-magic skills such as barter/speechcraft, alchemy, etc. I suppose a lot of them don't need to be tied into skills and some could be more along the line of the random wizard duels you could receive in Skyrim (but that would be combat based).

Yes, using skill level to interact in non-combat situation would be a nice addition to the next ES. Bethesda has proven they can do it rather well in Fallout. In my opinion though, it could be other skills than magic. Sure, it would be nice if you could decieve guards to ignoring crimes or bounties through the school of Illusion rather than speechcraft, if you want, but I wouldn't want other skills to be neglected. A high-level smithing could earn you reputation with smithies or make them teach you new recipes, instead of forcing you into different crafting perks direction (the perks could then simply be to make crafted equipment stronger and so on instead of focusing on specific types of material). It's an incomplete thought, I know, but still.

On the topic of magic, I liked baronaatista's idea of evolving spells. A Fireball could have it's AOE increased, the burn-length could be increased. The cost of the spell should increase as the spell evolves, and of course Decrease as your Destruction increases i think though, else it would be overpowered at times. I think Bethesda has touched that though. In the Restoration tree in Skyrim you could make healing spells recover some stamina and that is -a bit- similar to this idea, I think. It could definitely be done.

And I think having magic have a bigger part of the game and more lore of it would be nice. In most games and such there is some explanation as to where magic comes from, but in ES it's just... something everyone can do, if they put some time into it. Magic doesn't need to be mystical, not after it's been so common in all the games so far. That is, unless magic being less common is part of the next games story which would be interesting. But I would like it if the player could at least if we wanted to learn how magic works. And if there are books in-game that explains magic, I won't read it, probably. I rarely read in-game books (wire-less controller, lots of text, lots of battery cunsumption) so I would like the option of a dialog that explains it.

Pardon my spelling.

I think following something like Diablo 3's system of perks is something that could work within ES' games. Each spell could have up to 5-6 perks that you could choose for it. For example, a standard fireball does over-time damage. A flashfire perk would enable it to act more like a fire-bomb that you could set up in the air and it would explode after few seconds. Fireorb perk would enable it to split into multiple fire balls that would aoe damage and so on. Simply having magic do 25-50-75% increased damage won't cut it, and we all know how underpowered destruction magic is in elder scrolls games. It simply never scales properly and you're left spamming literally dozens of spells in order to kill off a high level bandit chief, or stunlock them, which was the only viable option. Not only that, but perks in Skyrim were too boring if you ask me.

There could also be magic that is not immediately learned through reading a spellbook, but more like separated into several books, sorta like with shouts, and the more books you have, the more powerful it grows. There could be a few PARTICULARY RARE and powerful spells in game that you could only obtain via killing extremely powerful enemies on higher difficulties and even then, it would require 100 skill in whatever magic school and ton of magicka to be casted, even with all the perks and leveled attributes.

I also think we need death based magic. It seems like they are trying to improve Necromancy from game to game, as in Oblivion there wasn't much to do but summon undead, and in Skyrim we got the option to ressurect the dead, but that's about it. What I'm talking about is true Necromancy, being able to cast clouds of poison/toxic, disintegrate armor via aoe spells, drain health, curses, maybe some kind of voodoo water magic/earth/nature magic if Black Marsh happens to be the next setting. Ability to raise waves of water, shoot compressed water projectiles, use roots and mangroves to entangle your opponents, poison them , or smack them with heaps of earth/wood constructs. Not everything has to be fire, ice and lightning.

I'm aware I'm asking for a lot but it could definitely work and it would definitely improve overall magic as it deserves. Since compared to stealth and direct combat, it's a bit lacking.

I'd actually argue that physical combat has been a bit lacking for most of the series, up until Skyrim reorganized magic completely at any rate, taking out most of its non-combative applications.

I wouldn't mind seeing a parry mechanic, or perhaps being able to throw our weapons, especially spears/axes. How do you feel about dodging via rolling or side-stepping?

I'd love to see dodging becoming more of a thing in a future installment. Maybe not so much in heavy armor, but I think it'd suit light and especially unarmored pretty well. A good example to how its pulled off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuPnUYUj2JM&t=197, and it'd naturally consume stamina. As for parrying, lots of people have tried putting their head around that. Preforming timed blocks is one idea, but then there's the issue of dual wielding and how it'd be handled there. And yeah, I'd like to see thrown projectiles (And just spears in general) make a return.

Yeah I agree. There is a similar system in Lords of the Fallen where only lightly armored characters actually roll, others just tank the hits with a shield or heavy armor. As for parrying, It could work similary to how it works in Souls games, basically you just nail the time and the enemy's attack is deflected and you have limited amount of time to press R1/etc and riposte them. It's suitable because Skyrim already introduced the basics. Same could go for two handers as well, pressing L2 for example ( parry button in dark souls for 2 handed weapons )

What I'm more interested is possibility of blocking for dual wielders. I see no reason not to be able to block with your swords locked or something, but at cost of increased damage compared to the shield, or maybe your weapon would get broked more often, I dunno.

Also stealth needs more improvement as well, as I stated in some of my posts above. Ability to put on paints in order to camouflage yourself or hide in the water and launch attacks from basically any position, maybe even climb a tree and perform a dropdown on your enemy ( no worries no platforming or action adventure stuff, just being able to climb a tree and stay there or go down. )

Crawling on your stomach could also be implemented, allowing for an even stealthier approach, but more time consuming. There is really a lot of stuff that could be improved.