The thing is, that kind if nuance has already been solved and implemented in a mechanically simple way that turns Health into a more strategic resource without without imposing excessive reliance on healing items. The Far Cry games have used Health Milestones to limit automatic regeneration for years, and it works cleanrly and smoothly. It would work even better in a RPG as opposed to a FPS.


The key to the system is that you have to sustain a certain threshold of damage to suffer an injury that you can't just shake off after a breather, but you can't completely recover from injuries of sustained combat. And the longer you go without proper attention, the less resource you have to work with. It also makes scaling of consumable healing items more versatile, giving you options for recovering Milestones for general recovery, healing through them, increasing regeneration, or just flat healing. Not to mention diversifying perk options to allow for faster regeneration and larger Milestones.


It's a mechanic we know works, it's just a matter of applying it. It combines the best of both worlds, while offering easy versatility and expansion of other systems (Alchemy and Armour particularly).

I like the health milestone idea. I imagine many people wouldn't enjoy it though. At least for a hardcoe mode, I think it would be epic, though.


So, what are some ways that the alchemy system could/should be overhauled or redefined?

I've actually been thinking about that, particularly based on what CKelly said about prefering the Witcher's model. Now, while I personally found Alchemy in Wild Hunt to be pointless and altogether uninteresting... But that doesn't mean it doesn't have some merit. In particular, recipies and multiple uses.


Alchemy in TES has several problems.


One, its tedious and time consuming. You have to go through the same mixing process whether you're making a potion for the first time or the thousandth.


Two, it's unfocused. Everything basically works the same, and potions end up being a hodgepodge of effects and times with no really coherent mechanism behind them.


Third, it scales horribly. HORRIBLY. Doesn't matter what game it is, towards the end you're always relying on bought potions than home made ones. It's only functionally useful in the early and mid game, or for really exotic effects.


Now, one thing I do like about The Witcher, and something that appears in ESO, is the use of solvents. Normally, TES just seems to assume a potion absorbs liquid from the air, but both of these games have you actively select what you're using as the mixing base. And I thunk this has potential.


First off, I'd like to see things divided more categorically. Potions, Elixers and Poisons.


Potions have a moderate duration (say 1-2 minutes) and are restorative in nature. They increase the recovery of resources throughout their duration. They are NOT instantaneous though, and their effect doesn't stack. This minimises the potion-chug problem.


Elixers are long term buffs (say, 24 hours) that don't stack. IE you can only have one Elixer going at a time. They cover things like Fortify potions, Resitances, Water Breathing etc. They're a preparedness thing.


Poisons are... Well, poisons. I'd change them to have a short to moderate duration, or multiple 'hits', rather than just one (I actually don't use poisons like... Ever... I barely know how they work as-is). You could even divide this between Poisons (resource damaging) and Toxins (Debilitating).


Anyway, these 3 types of alchemical products are distinguished based on the Solvents they use. Potions use Alcohol (fast acting). Elixers use water (easily absorbed, but prolonged). Poisons use Tars (viscious and hard to clean out of wounds). You can even add a quality component based on purity, so the more pure the solvent the more uses from the resulting creation (it dilutes the ingredients less).


So, by choosing the solvent, you determine what kind of concoction you want to make.


From there, the process is basically the same. Mix ingredients with like-effects to produce a result. I'd add a special quality to some, if not all, ingredients, to keep them useful in all types of alchemy... For instance, Wheat increases duration by X%, so even if all its effects are restorative, it still has some value in poisons.


To better handle scaling, I think a magnitude system may be in order. Different Ingredients offering different strengths of an effect. For instance, Wheat may offer 1 Restore Stamina, but a Daedra Heart offers 3. The potency of the resulting concoction is based on the total magnitude of its effects. That allows you to create more competitive brews as the game progresses. On top of this I'd add the ability to render out effects rather than creating potions, to allow you to maximise the upward potential... But it may not even be necessary...


Anyway, the final element I would include would be recipies. You can buy them, find them, or make your own, but the end is the same. You get a quick-mix recipie that doesn't require sorting through a list of ingredients. It expedites the mass production of potions you use frequently.


Of course, none of this is dealing with how the Alchemy Skill impacts the results, is it? That's simple.higher skill impacts duration, the strength-per-magnitude, and if we wanted to push it could even affect a failure chance of free-form alchemy (recipies have instructions, experements do not).

I like these ideas. I've also been wanting more magical alchemy effects to come back to some extent. I'd also like portable alchemy tooks to come back, but perhaps make them less viable than full blown alchemy labs (maybe an intelligence perk could fix that). Similar to how I'd like legendary spell tomes with unique spell effect types (like mind control or something) hidden away to counter warriors getting their legendary gear, I think that there should be certain alchemic ingredients that are considered legendary, with unique alchemic effects or effect powers. Like, maybe some mix of legendary ingredients that could revive a fallen comrade if administered within some certain in-game time after they died. I'm just thinking of random stuff here.


As for recipes, I like the while recipe tome idea. I think there should be certain legendary recipes that might even make NPCs comment on them, if you create it around them. Going to jobs, it would be cool if knowing a certain recipe would allow one to get paid more as a cook at an inn or something. I'd also like it if jobs had actual shifts where you had to show up for work on time, could potentially get fired if work were missed too many times, or where you could request time off (with disposition and speech skill effecting these kinds of things).


Without leaving the topic of alchemy just yet, how would techniques work? Would they be more around specific effect categories or more of a poison vs. potion or elixir thing?

I would love to see a return to having certain merchants who can create enchantments for you. Same goes for smithing and alchemy as well. Bring the respective merchant the mats and they can craft what you specify. This way every character you make doesn't have to spend perks on crafting skills if its not supposed to be in their skill sets just to get access to weapon or armor improvements, a special potion, or useful enchantment.

I'd like this as well. Perhaps skill trainers for smithing, enchanting, or alchemy could do it.


Also, I don't recall, were the top level skill trainers in Skyrim hard to find?

I don't think so. I remember Morrowind and Oblivion the master trainers were fairly hard to find. In the former, some of them were tucked away in remote locations, and in the later you had to be a certain level in a skill and have a lesser trainer tell you about the Master Trainer. In Skyrim you could find masters fairly early.

I personally wished they scrapped the current training system.I rather have some few limited trainers like Angi for the skill(maybe so that the higher tier trainers will only teach you after you have a certain skill level or after doing a quest) that actualyl have you train with them.

The current systems has beggars or poor people getting hundred or thousands of coins for a single traning session despite having enough gold to build a castle which I find rather unimmersive.

That's what I was thinking. I didn't like it at all. I think that by the time one gets to where they would need a master level trainer, they should be well-equipped for adversity. I'd like to go back to them being really hard to find.

I just dont want empty cities

That is really weird to me as well. If you get all that money from training folks, you wouldn't remain a beggar right?

Funny story, I believe it was the Conjuration master in the Xbox version of Morrowind that was hidden away in a Dunmer Stronghold called "Indoranyon", a fairly obscure place short of using Propylon Chambers. Well, in my game (I'm sure other Xbox versions had this problem as well) the Conjuration guy was hostile! He would attack you on sight so you pretty much had to calm him to get him to talk to you.

Morrowinds Master Trainers were really nice,especially if you read some of the ingame skill books since they often got mentioned in them.

To be honest, I never really liked the idea having master trainers hidden away like hermits. As Trainers, these are peopled who pass on their knowledge, they aren't Masters of a particular art that shy away from education (though those also exist). You don't see PHDs hiding away and refusing to share their knowledge with others, Master Trainers shouldn't either.


That doesn't mean they can't have some restricted access. Particularly if they are associated with a particular organization... But having them hide away in some secluded retreat, only teaching one prodigy student who is worthy is way, way to trope'd up for my tastes.


That said, I WOULD like to have a system where you can pay Craftsmen to make things for you. It would be limited to their knowledge, and cost extra, but it would make it so crafting skills are less mandatory.




The problem with the technique idea is... It could be done in a few ways.


It could be general skill based, in which you are basically just controlling the variables that the skill governs. So, for example, Potency, Duration and Concentration (maybe allow you to get extra uses out if a bottle?).


You could also divide it up into sub-groups, treating Potions, Elixers and Poisons seperately, and use the same characteristics for each. This would basically give you 9 different things to shape your use of the skill, but it means that your investments are highly focused.


A third option is to have techniques defined by special bonuses. So, for instance, one Technique you could invest in would be Ovraelion's Distilation. The more points you invest in it, the more likely you are to get extra yields when rendering out effects. Using that kind of system would basically open up a whole raft of other mechanical options, but it would relegate Perks almost entirely to cross-skill effects, which could limit their range of options.

I always just equated it to the "Old Master on the Mountain" thing. Still, I see your point. And that last part about craftsmen is exactly how I think they should do that. Balanced by high fees and only maybe one smith/enchanter/alchemist who can make epic goods for you.

Why not?It's not like they signed a contract to always teach you what they know.In Oblivion they only did it because the player did a quest for them ,in Morrowind some were hidden and some weren't,those that were hidden usually had a reason.

Being a trainer is not their main job.Why should the secluded master sorcerer run arround with a sign"Hey I'm good at teaching!!!" Or the survivalist hunter not be in the wildernis?

And how do you get the idea that they are like PHDs?

Not every master of an art is going to tollerate students, that's true. But those who DO aren't going to hide them selves away like a recluse. That's not a mentality conducive to education. Teaching is more than just instruction, it's a passion and a drive to share knowledge and experience. People who are even WILLING to do it aren't going to seperate themselves from potential pupils, because it defeats the entire purpose.


That's not to say that SOME may lean towards more reclusive behaviour. Particularly those whose skills are of limited or criminal application, or those whose craft requires seclusion, but applying that unilaterally to EVERY master of an art borders on the idiotic.


The whole 'Master on the Mountain' trope is one of the stupidest tropes in fiction, and was clearly created by someone who knew nothing of an educators mind (it's actually born of spiritual principles that required the isolation of one's self from material, and particularly urban associations. So it's a spiritual practice, NOT an education tool) and the sooner it's gets buried as nonsense the better.


That doesn't mean that everyone with a Master level in skill is going to offer training. But hiding them away just because they''re a Master trainer is pointless, stupid, and offers nothing in the way of character or world building. Where they are and how they act should be driven by the skill they know, and their personality. More often than not, the most skilled people are found where they can practice their craft the easiest, and those willing to share their skills are found where they can most easily find students.

I actually agree with this.

Can't we just have both? Solitary masters high up in the mountains, scholars and educators at your local institution, and commoners with more to them than meets the eye? I'm sure Bethesda won't roll everything into just one skill.

Although I did like in Skyrim that you couldn't train past 90 in a skill. Gives the sense of being able to surpass the masters, which I think is great for this kind of leveling system. Not too big on faction-specific master trainers, but I never used trainers enough for it to truly bother me.

Oh, definately, there's room for variety. A Master of Restoration Magic is probably going to be off in the middle of nowhere, healing villiages too far from the temples. A Master of Necromancy is going to be obviously secluded or undercover. A Master of Lockpickig isn't going to advertise on the street corner.


But this notion that every Master Trainer needs to be some disenfranchised, seclusionary grump that makes you prove your worth is silly. People don't teach because they have to, they teach because it's something they love, and while they may have standards, their knowledge doesn't turn them into hermits.

I agree with this. I think variety is ultimately best in most regards. I just thought Skyrim's approach from what I remember was a lack of variety in regards to how master trainers were presented. I also think that master trainers, or at least most, shouldn't be willing to teach just anyone.


I'd personally like master trainers to go to level 100, but after that, where the skill becomes "legendary" and there could be technique modifiers accessible to only those with legendary skills, where no trainer could teach you.


Regarding the idea of techniques towards skills, I've no idea how they should work, but I suppose the approach should vary by skill. I was sort of thinking of them similar to how ESO's skill thing works, where you can morph specific aspects of a skill to function differently.


For weapon skills, it could change the movements associated with power attacks and the bonuses granted from performing those attacks. Then the skill increase itself would impact stamina cost from using it. Raw damage itself could also be increased via techniques, and same with attack speed, etc. Maybe one could pick techniques that make them more prone to performing swift attacks that aren't as powerful, or the opposite, or anything in between.


For magic skills, the skills level would reduce cost the higher it went, and the modifiers could maybe cause certain effects to activate whenever a certain element, spell type, or something is used. Like, there could be a technique that makes fire destruction spells spread more and do more damage, and force/telekinesis spells disintegrate sometimes, as well as some of the more... math-oriented effects.


As for other things, I haven't thought about them as much.


I'm also still a bit blurry on how often technique modifiers would be picked. Once per category (novice, apprentice, journeyman, expert, master, legendary, etc.)? With points gained from leveling skills a certain number of times? Every time a skill is leveled or every certain number of skill levels ? Every level up?

Most of the time the reclusive "Master on the Mountain" are reluctant to train the folks who come seeking the training, right? Isn't the fact that they are reclusive indicate that they are wanting to be done training people?


You know what, don't answer those last questions. It really just boils down to ones opinion on whether it's stupid or not. I don't really care, but the trope is not going anywhere so I won't let it bother me. Besides, the debate isn't crucial to this thread.


Now on the topic of trainers: I suspect they stopped the whole hidden master trainers from Morrowind for the very reasons Lachdonin pointed out, and people thought it was stupid they were hidden away like that. I'm fine if they just keep them like they are in Skyrim, minus the beggars who should be retired from begging because of the gold they make training, lol.

And we never had that in any TES game.In Morrowind most Master trainers were found in logical locations there are only very few that are hidden and in Oblivion a lot of them just wanted you to prove that you are good enough and weren't hidden either.

Again there is not a single case that happend in any TES game.Non of them hide(if at all) because they are masters.

Several trainers were found in Strongholds surrounded by hostile NPCs, while several from Oblivion were found quite a distance from civilization in generally nonsense places. And their 'Tasks' were arbitrary and showed that they had no association with the educators in their fields.


Master Swordsmen run schools, Master Craftsmen run workshops, Master spellcasters are found in areas where they can either conduct their research easiest it teach others.


And remember, we're talking about TRAINERS here. People who are willing to educate others in the craft. Not every 'Master' of a craft is going to tolerate a wide eyed novice trying to copy his every move. People who train others have typically opperated institutions for the education of individuals in their trade. Guilds, Workshops, Schools, Arenas, the Barraks, These are the places that master TRAINERS congregate. Not camps in the woods, not rundown fortresses full of monsters, and usually not their homes (follow a teacher home and see where that gets you). And if you have to somehow prove your worth, all it shows is that said Master isn't remotely in contact with others in their field. If you've impressed other trainers, a trainer who isn't a recluse should have heard of it.


That's not to say that SOME can't fit into this trope. But painting all Master Trainers with the same brush is silly. It ignores the passionate educators who will teach anyone who listens. It ignores the regimental harasses who single out the creme of the crop. It ignores the perfectionists who want to hand-rear the perfect student from a young age. It ignores the enthusiastic and the bombastic, the scholarly and the blunt, the institutional and the free spirits.


Master Trainers should be treated as Characters, not as some mold that spits out a trope.






These two things, however... Have me thinking.


One of my all time favorite RPGs (call it what you will, I say its an RPG) is Quest for Glory. You had marginal control over your stats, almost no control over the story (it had no real choices most of the time) but it was full of character and interesting people and design choices...


Anyway, one thing that was consistent throughout the series was training. You didn't pay some money and instantly get better at something. You got up, went to the Fighters Guild, Sambi villiage, Mystics Hut, Theives Guild etc, you spoke to someone, and you TRAINED with the local tutor, Instructor, Master, whatever. You fought, or picked pockets, or practiced levitation etc. until you were so exhausted everything you did hurt, and then you went to bed and got up to do it again in the morning. Doing it this way was faster and safer than risking a real fight, but it came at the cost of.. well, not getting loot.


I miss that from time to time... And I actually go back and replay the entire series once a year.


I've always thought TES could do with a similar thing...for instance, you train with Farkas, and actually spar. Or you train with Saphire, and have to make it through the Sewer undetected. So long as you're 'Training' you get an exp bonus to said skill, but you're actually EXERCISING that skill in the process.


Or at least making training function like resting, where the longer you train the greater the benefits (and higher the cost). You know, since some skills don't really fit into the whole 'real time training' thing that easily.


But what if we did away with the whole Master Trainer thing entirely. Instead (and this plays into the 3rd Technique model I mentioned) every trainer has a particular technique. You need to train with them to 'unlock' access to that technique. And then, you need to practice (IE use and level up the skill) enough to unlock the full bonus of that technique once unlocked, it's just a constant buff to that skill.


That makes every trainer useful, and allows you to spread training influence across more people than would typically be covered under the normal Trainer model.

I was actually initially thinking of something like this when you guys first started talking about techniques. As them being things learned from factions or trainers, rather than something you magically gain through a selection screen.


In this particular case, I'd be up for something like this, although I'd prefer it be more automatic than something that has to be manually practiced to be learned. I think the automatic method is less realistic but is more feasible gameplay-wise.


Or maybe have both skill trainers and technique trainers. I'd definitely like to see different levels of techniques for skills, on a scale from novice (0 - 19), to apprentice (20 - 39), to adept (40 - 59), to journeyman (60 - 79), to expert (80 - 99), to master (100 - 149 or something), to legendary (150+ or something).


This might also promote meaningful increases past a level 100 skill cap.


I'd like for techniques to be able to be learned through trainers, tomes, guilds/quests, etc.


Skills could similarly be still increased through skill tomes and skill trainers.


Maybe perks could also be gained through unique tomes or certain rare quests. I'd prefer for them to still be based on attibutes, though.


Just some ideas. Many might prefer the more traditional ranks but I like the idea of having skill ranks every 20 levels or so.

So, as you guys imagine them, what would techniques be?