I agree. Whole heartedly.

Oops, some how I missed this response.

Yeah that is actually a really good point. Like you, I do think it would be best for the Mages Guild.

Yeah... It's one of those areas where I think Mechanics should take a back seat to world building. And I'm going to ramble some theory and philosophy here for a minuts...


In general, I divide the game into 2 parts. The mechanics that drive it's interactions, and the world those interactions exist in.


When it comes to Mechanics, I firmly believe that they should be as simple as possible to achieve a set goal. Like any sort of engineering, you want to know what you want to accomplish, and then figure out the least complex way to accomplish it. Simplicity is a beautiful thing, and when done right it doesn't compromise the versatility or range of the finished product.


But when it comes to Mechanics, function is more important than flair. The mechanics are the driving force in gameplay, and they shouldn't be skimped on for the sake of ensuring the illusion of variety. Function is everything in mechanics, and there is no point having 2 mechanics that do the same thing. That time and energy is better served on mechanics that make a functional difference. The Mechanics are there to facilitate role play, not to be held up by it.


On the opposite side of things... The World is not a mechanical thing. It's not there to serve functional purposes, but to serve as the flair. Organizations exist as part of the world, not Class-linked progression mechanics. People exist as individuals living in the world, not as info-boxes. Dungeons and Environments exist as places in the world, not as levels to challenge the player or character mechanically.


More and more, I think the World should be designed first, at least in concept, and then the Mechanics follow suit. The mechanics are based on how you interact with the world, the world shouldn't be built around the mechanics.


But, because you can't really make a game that way, it's necessary to keep the mechanics as simple and adaptable as possible, so they can be worked around the world design in as fluid and unrestricted a manner as possible.

I think part of what made Morrowind's main quest good was that they had you explore and learn about the world before they asked you to save it. By that point, you're invested in what happens. In Oblivion, they hand you the 'save the world' card before you even finish the tutorial. Why should I? I don't know anyone, I haven't done any work for the guilds, I don't even know what the cities look like.

On guild stat requirements, what if instead of having requirements to advance, they have entry requirements? After you actually join, then they just care about you getting the job done, but they want to make sure you have basic competence first so you don't ruin their reputation.

Yeah IMO, Oblivion felt like I was playing the game wrong if I was doing anything in the beginning other than focusing on the MQ. Don't get me wrong, I love Oblivion, but I would've appreciated a bit slower pacing at the beginning.


On entry requirements, I did like how in Skyrim the lady asked you to cast a spell for her at the gate.

I think it depends on the organization. The Companions are likely to be more picky than the Fighters Guild, for instance. The Guild will probably take just about anyone, but the Companions have a legacy to uphold. I think the Mages Guild in Oblivion actually did a decent job, and the College of Winterhold at least put it's foot in the right direction... But they both relied on the ability to fulfil activities, rather than numbers on a character sheet somewhere. Which does mean, of course, that a crafty player/character can cheat. Which is good.


I'm not entirely against having checks to try and direct advancement, but the problem with Morrowind-like requirements is they are mechanics in and of them selves, they don't rely on other mechanics to create a scenario. That means there's only one way past them. And when there's only one way past something, it doesn't reward diversity or experementation.


For instance... What if you had to beat a GuildManager in a martial duel to gain his support against a corrupt Guild Master. You're basically setting up a check against various combat skills. If your stats are too low, you're likely to lose. In Morrowind's day, you'd just set a number, and of you surpassed it he'd support you. But if you break the game down into more simplistic mechanics, and build interactions around those mechanics, you can create more options.


For instance, you know you can't beat him in a straight up duel. So instead, you steal his armour while he's sleeping, and enchant it with Burden, increasing its weight. Because Speed and Mobility is based on weight, rather than an arbitrary armour class, the change in weight makes him slower, giving you an edge.


Or, as a thief, you have to pickpocket a lock to get into a vault. But your pickpocket skill svcks. Ok, fine, your Alteration skill is off the charts, you'll just Passwall straight through the door. It's not really the 'Typical' theif way if doing things, but relying on simple mechanics allows you to explore unorthodox solutions, instead of being locked into the way the developers may have intended something to be solved.

For me, it actually backfired. The more I learned about them, the less I liked or cared for Dunmer culture and politics, and the less I cared what happened to them. The only reason I kept going was because Dagoth Ur threatened more than the Dunmer, but that threat was never made visible (even the threat against the Dunmer was barely portrayed, let alone elsewhere), so it ended up feeling like I had to do these things just because.

I'd rather have requirements to advance than requirements to enter. For the Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, etc, it makes sense that you need to be proficient with a specific set of skills to do the job as they need*. The issue with the Fighters Guild is it tends to portrayed more as a Guild of Mercenaries who do jobs other people need done, rather than a proper Guild of Fighters who are dedicated to preserving and improving the martial arts. In the latter case, they should care if you accomplish tasks via magical or physical prowess because arcane magery is not furthering their goals.

* The Thieves Guild should care if you steal by slaughtering entire families in broad daylight to take their things, as it's going to draw far more attention than they should want. Similarly, the DB should care if you're continually spotted killing your targets as its going to make you a wanted person that's going to have trouble fulfilling contracts, since more people will recognize you as trouble. Unfortunately TES has more and more just cared about completing the task, less about how you completed a task. The DB should care if you're being careless and bringing more heat on the organization, the TG should care if you're being seen and bringing more unwanted attention to the guild, the MG should care if you're not improving your arcane capabilities and the FG should care if you're not improving your martial capabilities.

There were some interesting individuals, for sure, although Morrowind's dialog system also makes it hard for me to interact with them on a personal level outside of specific events. I think Oblivion did a better job of being able to talk to individual NPCs about general things, which helps make them a bit more personable.

Certainly. There were supposed to be an increasing number riots, high-profile assassinations, recruitments, and uprisings against established powers. But Morrowind's engine wasn't very good about dynamic world changes without specifically scripting things to happen (and MW's scripting language is rather ugly to work with). There's also the issue that having these things go on automatically may have the Oblivion Gate effect, where the player feels compelled to get the MQ over with just to stop those annoying things from happening.

The Far Harbor expansion pack that Bethesda Game Studios announced for Fallout 4 has a picture of a boat. Imagine if Fallout 4 finally got naval combat.

Now imagine if The Elder Scrolls VI got naval combat and if it's set in a province of Tamriel that is surrounded by the ocean like Black Marsh or Valenwood.

Dont the Redguards have something of a reputation as seafarers?

I believe so, but I don't really want to see another human province in The Elder Scrolls VI. I want to finally see the Argonians homeland or the Woodelves homeland.

No love for the Khajiit? Elsweyr is bordered on the south by "the glistening blue waters of the sea"!

I do like the Khajiit I forgot though that Elsweyer has that mouth of the ocean.

It's kind of a leap to go from "picture of a boat" to "naval combat"... I feel like the only settings that would be appropriate in are Hammerfell and maybe High Rock - Hammerfell has already proven it's the best choice for pirate fantasy. Between that and the interior, I feel like Hammerfell would be the best choice for a more high-adventure oriented type of RPG. And remember that every province in Tamriel touches the ocean.

On skill requirements: No hard "you must increase this skill to progress this questline" crap - I could dig it for the Ritual Spell quests in Skyrim, since their premise was "what else is there to learn?", but that's about as far as I'll go. Instead, give us quests that require us be proficient in whatever the faction appreciates. You *have* to be sneaky to accomplish the radiant quests in Skyrim's Thieves Guild, and that's what worked. Mage faction quests would involve problems with an arcane solution, like the enchanted lockboxes or nobles cursed with insomnia in Daggerfall. Warrior quests could involve sparring matches, maybe even having you train a commoner or new recruit in combat. Not all quests should be laser-focused on using relevant skills, of course - the warrior merc faction shouldn't care if you clear out a bandit camp or Troll lair with fireballs, mages should still send you on quests to fill soul gems, collect arcane books, or take care of any loose Daedra, so on.

On the "chosen one" role: If they can figure out how to write a storyline that engages me on an emotional level and makes me care, but still invites me to explore the world and side-quest at my own pace, I'll be really impressed, but it's kind of hard to do both. And if they tell us we're a special Chosen One, let us explore and interpret what that means, or reject it entirely, which is something they've already been doing so I'm okay with it. In all, as long as I like the story they can do whatever they want with it. What would be funny is if the game kept track of how long you put off a main quest, and they added flavor dialog like "what took you so long?" or "we've been waiting longer than we expected...". Just, flavor dialog. Not every choice or non-choice needs to have far-reaching repercussions.

Well the other stuff I can speculate is that the name of the expansion pack has harbor in it. Boats and ships dock at harbors and you have to sail on rivers or the ocean to get from one harbor to the other harbor.

Then there is where Bethesda Game Studios describes in the description that it's the biggest expansion pack that they have ever developed, meaning it has to be bigger than The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion's Shivering Isles, then there is someone telling me about a harpoon gun here.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1591524-guess-where-we-will-sail-from-to-get-to-the-new-far-harbor/page-2

Scroll down to read the last 2 comments.

Either way I want The Elder Scrolls video games to have naval combat for once.

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim would of been a lot more funner to have some naval combat and to explore the ocean.

a Harbor can also mean any place of refuge, even if its landlocked.. it doesn't always mean a port



it seems ever since Black Flag came out, everyone goes "ohh, every game needs Naval exploration", and to be quite honest, I don't think Beth could pull it off as things stand..


so many things have to be implemented just right in order to make it feel fluid, and just looking at Skyrims scripts in the CK, I think they would have to tackle it in a far different method than they are used to.. such a feature implemented poorly along with the fact the game would have to heavily focus on it to make it viable from a design standpoint, can literally ruin an otherwise great game by itself..

Let them get water right before they try to expand on it by adding ships and whatnot.

I would just be happy if there were neat grottos, sunken ships and the like to explore, and that swimming and underwater combat made sense. Spears. Spear spears spears spears.

Largest landmass they've ever done for a DLC, to be specific. If there's any aquatic mishaps, I'll be surprised.

Morrowind required that two skills in the fighter, mage or thief line should be high enough, one strong and one medium as I remember. I like the idea but it should be differentiated especially the mage guild should have stronger requirements here, fighter guild is more interested in results but it would be hard for an pure mage to get respect enough to be guildmaster, thief guild is more interested in results.

More interesting in Morrowind was that you had to grind reputation, yes i know this is controversial but reputation and radiant quests is an way to pad an guild questline. Face it most of the guild quests in Morrowind could just as well be radiant quests.

Right. In Daggerfall, all guild quests were basically radiant quests. I wouldn't at all complain about guilds being loaded with radiant quests that help you get your reputation up with them to receive rank promotions... as long as there's a good amount of diversity in the quests, and a good amount of diverse locations to be sent to, which is unfortunately where Skyrim failed on both counts (too many radiant quests were too similar, and there weren't enough locations for the randomized target locations to work well; you often ended up getting sent to a cave or fort that you already cleared because you ran across it while exploring, or because other radiant quests in the area sent you there too).