This thread is for ideas and suggestions for future Elder Scrolls games, and to keep all the discussion in one series of threads.


We have a long way to go before we get another ES game. In the meantime, similar topics will be closed and referred to this one.


Note there is a separate thread specifically for http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1589318-tes-vi-location-and-setting-speculation-29/ suggestions for future games. Please keep discussion of Skyrim in the correct forums.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1593816-official-beyond-skyrim-tes-vi-74/

Not entirely sure how you separate katanas, longswords, sabers, etc into distinct branches of a "Swords" skill tree that actually make each one feel different, and not just be +Parry, +Crit Damage, +Attack Speed, -Stamina Cost, etc. And then balance that against separate skills for however you want to group axes, maces, hammers, spears, unarmed, etc. And deciding between what should scale with our skill, and what should scale with the upgrades/modifications we can make to the weapons themselves via crafting.

I think it would be more prudent to talk about the ways they can expand melee combat, differentiate different styles of combat, and make different strategies viable in different situations.

- Skill trees should focus on general weapon categories, and include branches for different playstyles like sword-and-board, sword-and-spell, dual-wielding, one-handed dueling, parrying. The stats of the weapons themselves should differentiate between the various weapons (crafting upgrades should reflect that - greater power attack damage for blunt weapons, bleed damage for axes, armor-piercing, better crits, limb damage, etc).

- Taking after Fallout, melee weapons only get timed parries - wielding a one-handed weapon with nothing in the off-hand improves this. Shields can still be held up indefinitely, and blocking an attack reduces stamina instead of health.

- Probably more important than anything in the character system or different weapons, different enemies need to call for different strategies. Give skeletons, dwarven automatons, and other fleshless creatures a resistance to bladed damage and a weakness to blunt damage. Give ethereal opponents a weakness to magicka and a strong resistance to conventional damage. Add enemies with armor plating in specific areas, and enemies that can be dismembered or crippled to turn into an easier opponent. Enemies with absurdly high armor rating and absurdly low HP, weak and fast enemies that swarm you, weaker enemies that buff stronger enemies or throw debuffs at you, weak conjurers that summon tough Daedra. That'll improve combat more than any skill tree or a million different weapons.

I like this.


Dual wielding. Should it be removed? If left in, how can it be improved?

Leave it in. Dual weilding weapons is a generally bad idea (save for a few specific pairings) but it WAS done, and it offers some increased offensive versatility, while sacrificing some Defensive, but without totally forsaking an active mitigation altogether. It's also rather crucial for the Skyrim Magic mechanics, which are bands down the best in the series (even if the spell lists are small, and the balance way off).


Generally though, I agree with Boxman, these conversations typically start at the wrong end. We talk about Skills as if they are all-important, but Skills are determined by gameplay mechanics. You don't put in a Carpentry skill if there's no woodworking mechanic in-game.


Particularly when talking about Combat Skills (be they Melee, Ranged or Magical) it's important to first have an image of HOW you want combat to be handled.


In general, I think combat should have 3 components, and all 3 Paradigms should offer at least one way of dealing with each component. Damage, Defense and Control.


Damage is about... Well, damage. It's how you engage and defeat enemies. From Melee engagement, to Fnireballs, to Traps, it's about how one confronts and ultimately disables opponents.


Defense is about how one avoids damage. Primarily using 3 models... Active mitigation (parries and blocks) passive mitigation (AC and barriers) and avoidance (dodging, stealth and persuasion).


Control is about how one manages enemies and the battlefield. Staggers, knockdowns, traps, charms etc. Things that allow you to limit the enemies you fight at any one time and dictate the flow of battle.

Indeed. Skyrim's dual wielding needed some refinement, but it was a natural part of the hand assignment mechanic, which was a huge improvement in how spell casting worked. And really, there were only two problems with Skyrim's dual wielding: you needed to wait for the weapon in one hand to finish swinging before you could swing the weapon in the other hand, and the one available power attack rooted you in place for a lengthy animation. The first one meant that you couldn't actually double your damage output as advertised, and the second was just a liability. There's no reason these issues can't be fixed in the next game. It might even be possible to fix them with SKSE, but I'm not a scripting expert so I'm not sure.

Leave dual-wielding in, of course. One look at the animations in Skyrim, Oblivion, or maybe even Morrowind will tell you that combat in these games is not modeled after realistic melee combat - it's dramatic, Hollywood-style Conan the Barbarian action. Thank the stars Hollywood doesn't go for twirly acrobatic melee combat like in Witcher or Kingdom Hearts, but I think as long as Elder Scrolls lets you swap between perspectives freely that will never be a problem - although on the flipside, having to work in both perspectives makes it harder for them to take advantage of combat gameplay specific to a certain perspective - locational damage or Daggerfall-style directional attacks don't translate as well into third-person (probably why directional attacks changed from mouse-movement to character movement between Daggerfall and Morrowind).

I don't think we should get a TES-ified version of VATS in VI, but one thing I do love about Fallout is the new critical hit system, and I've been thinking of how it might translate to a real-time combat system. I think it could work great - instead of having the extra effects from power attacks kick in randomly (decapitation for killing blows, ragdoll for backwards-power attacks), or having bonus effects for spells (Fear from fire, freeze from frost) kick in at a health threshold, something like that critical hit system could give us more control over how to use special attacks, and another way we could build our characters. How would we build up critical hits? And how would we execute them? Not just for melee, but for ranged and magic. (hey, maybe even critical effects for non-Destruction spells, like a critical Frenzy that makes the frenzied target stronger, or a critical Paralysis that cripples their limbs. Critical Magelight could... blind them?)

I'm pretty sure you could swing your other weapon sooner. It just required proper timing, but when you do it, alternating left and right attacks was faster than swinging the same one over and over again. And the dual-wielding power attack was stronger than a single-handed one when they all hit, as it landed more blows (which also meant it could stack bleed and stuff from both weapons when you have the appropriate perks). It required a different strategy to play though, since you didn't have the defense to tank them or the raw damage to power through their defense.

When they all hit it was fantastic, particularly if you had dual enchanted both weapons. However, all it took to be a waste was for the bandit or whatever to take a single step to the side or two steps back. I never had enough success with it to make dual wielding a core part of my character. I even think that the assassins all dual wielding made them easier to kill since I could simply step away whenever they began their power attack animation and get some free hits in during the end while they switched back to the basic stance.

Yeah there definitely should've been a way to cancel the move being that it was so easy to avoid and counter. Perhaps hitting the block button during the attack to cancel it would've been a good solution. I mean, if you were really fighting some one you wouldn't keep attacking air after your opponent moved and your first blow missed.

Dual-wielding has no block button. The block button is the button for your left hand, which for dual-wielding would be the left hand attack (and also one of the buttons to hold for the dual-wield power attack).

Damn, that's right. I don't know what the hell I was thinking about. Nevermind lol

Who knows, maybe the next game will have a dedicated block/parry/defense button that can be used to cancel attacks. Especially if the voice shout button is freed up.

A deterministic critical hit system with neither VATS nor locational damage could be based on hitting a target during specific animation frames. For example, any of our attacks that hit just before our enemy's attack/spell completes could inflict critical effects.

Perks could expand the conditions that cause critical hits such as hitting an enemy just after their attack/spell completes, hitting them immediately after a successful timed block/parry or hitting while they're staggered.

As for building up to critical hits, maybe losing stamina could cause combatants to become sluggish and thus increase the time window for landing critical hits, with the caveat that more anticipation is needed on the part of the one attempting a critical hit since their attacks would be slowed down too. This would increase the significance of gaining a stamina advantage over our opponent such that they leave themselves increasingly open to criticals while our attacks remain swift and responsive.

This sounds like it could be quite a fun dynamic! It would add variety to the flow and pace of combat as a battle progresses. And If properly balanced it would allow someone who is more injured but less fatigued than their opponent to quickly turn the fight around, and who doesn't enjoy pulling off a dramatic come-from-behind victory!

Voice button?

Shouts. The Shout button.

Ah. Thank you.

just thinking, since the magic skills are 'schools', why not extend that to combat?

instead of heavy armor, block, weapon skills - why not have different combat 'schools' or disciplines instead? it would require a large change in thought, but would give much more variety and styles.

different combat school/disciplines would have different perks and different methods of attacks, power attacks, and defense. dedicated warriors would train in multiple combat disciplines like a dedicated mage trains in multiple spell schools, giving their a greater variety of tactics at their choosing. those that only need rudimentary self defense or a back up attack would likely train with one discipline.

like maybe one discipline is more for heavy armor and shield fighting, another is standoff/skirmishing, another about control and disabling, and another for slaying non-humanoid monsters. something like that, each with a different set of tactics.