This thread is for ideas and suggestions for future Elder Scrolls games, and to keep all the discussion in one series of threads.


We have a long way to go before we get another ES game. In the meantime, similar topics will be closed and referred to this one.


Note there is a separate thread specifically for http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1601186-tes-vi-location-and-setting-speculation-31/ suggestions for future games. Please keep discussion of Skyrim in the correct forums.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1600388-official-beyond-skyrim-tes-vi-77/

New thread, time for a new topic.

Something we haven't talked about for awhile is disposition and building relationships with NPCs. This is something that TES (and most games for that matter) has always kinda svcked at, relying mostly on terrible mini-games or overly simplistic bribe-loops. Even then, the purpose of increasing disposition was unclear, as instances for persuasion were few and far between, and all it really did was give you better barter prices. That said, I can't think of a single RPG that had a good reputation and disposition system that worked both for complex and well developed characters, and for simple NPCs that don't necessarily get the same amount of fleshing out. Given the lack of successful examples, and generally pointless implementation previously, I can understand why it was dropped entirely...

Understand, but not agree. I think having a versatile disposition system is an integral component to the style of game that Bethesda makes. There needs to be a mechanism in place for building relationships with the people of the world, and not just travelling companions, so some investment in the dynamic is something that should be really focused on.

I think, too, that smarter use of certain elements already in place would make it easier than may at first be apparent. Smarter use of Fallout 4's Dialogue System allows both for easy snap-interactions, and for easy Choice-Gating.

The snap interactions can form an easy dialogue interaction on the fly, allowing for a more realistic and intuitive method of increasing disposition against 'Mundane' NPCs through actually talking to and interacting with, without the need to go into the usual committed conversations. It actually allows for the entire nature of conversations in the game to be changed, but that's something for another discussion. Being able to quickly say 'Hello' as you pass NPCs, with no messy Mini-games or Persuasion Interfaces, is a more naturalistic and faster method of disposition gain for the 'average' NPC that doesn't disrupt the overall play. It also allows for the ability to include negative interactions, like 'insult', in case you don't actually want someone to like you. Or, if personalities are more diverse, some people may like the jabs, who knows.

The interface of the system also allows for easy gating of topics without the need for a large list-system as we saw in Morrowind. By linking certain dialogue choices to disposition levels, you can make the reveal of information a little more natural, and give building a relationships with NPCs more of a functional purpose. While not remotely necessary, the Fallout 4 model here, using a topical system, makes things a little more compact and neater visually, but the same principle applies to the standard list.

In terms of general disposition, I think having it gate certain dialogue choices as well as access to quests is the best we can really expect for most NPCs, and really I think it's all that's necessary.

Beyond that, though, Companion Disposition, as it works in Fallout 4, is pretty good. Probably the best we've ever seen in a Bethesda game, and better than what Obsidian slapped into New Vegas.

That said, I'd also like to see a specialised Marital Disposition. Something that becomes available at a higher disposition for those NPCs who are eligible for deeper relationships. No more of that 'Wear an Amulet, fall in love instantly', or only being able to romance Companions.

I hope disposition comes back and plays a larger role in the game, offering choice and non combat solutions to problems. However I don't want it to end up being like in previous games where you can "admire" or make jokes and raise their disposition into trusting you with important things. Instead disposition should be raised by doing quests and helping people with their problems, but also reputation from previous achievements and belonging to factions. Bribing should create the possibility to give information without having to be skilled in persuasion while threats or charming should be tied to the skill more. But as said using these should not necessarily raise disposition but rather unlock dialogue options.

Bring back the conversation mini game!....



That was a joke. I do agree though, they need to come up with a better disposition system.

Disposition doesn't need to get to complicated. Make each npc have a neutral disposition towards you then your choices and actions either raise or lower it.


Your race would be the first of these choices where npcs Grant you a bonus for being the same race or in the same factions such as being a race thats associated with the Aldmeri Dominion races your disposition with the other races such Altmer liking Khajiit.


Have a fame and infamy system for both global and local areas. For instance in Skyrim just because you do a lot of quest in Falkreath doesn't mean people in Riften are going to like you more but the people in Falkreath will likeb you a lot. Then getting a high enough disposition with a city can start minorly raising your global fame and disposition. Then doing certain and larger quest would greatly impact your fame like if it was set in Hammerfell doing quest involving them and the main story would directly affect overall fame as well as their political alignment. Which bring me to my next point


Factions/guilds would also play a huge part in diposition. Opposing or rival factions would like you less while people in the same faction would like you more.


Also if they bring back attribute which they should then Personality would also play a huge part in it along with skill.

Just want to kind of bring these two points together for a moment:


I agree that Fallout New Vegas Companion disposition was lacking, and that Fallout 4 I think works very well. On the other hand, New Vegas reputation system for factions worked really well. If you could combine what Fallout 4 did with companions, and what New Vegas did for factions, you could flesh out a very good system imo.


I think the big problem with combining these two things is that companions typically are aligned with a faction, and if you get a companion to really like you, do they truly switch their personal allegiance to you over their faction? Or would anything against that faction break the allegiance? A dynamic system here would work best, depending on the character and their affiliation with the faction.


For example: Paladin Danse could really respect you to the highest regard, but his devotion to the BoS would override it if you did anything to go against them. While say Piper might have an affiliation with Diamond City, but it might not be strong enough to override your personal allegiance with them should you do anything to Diamond City.



I believe that a system like this that truly makes a dynamic use of relationships and reputation between PC, NPCs and factions, would be an ideal setup.

Problem with Fallout 4's companion disposition is that it all progressed way, way too rapidly, and seemingly inane tasks netted you approval/disapproval bonuses. It sounds good on paper, but given how often the PC ends up doing tasks that just so happen to net approval was a bit short sighted. I'd mostly remove that issue and keep approval/disapproval during dialogue events in quests or conversation with the NPC itself. Its the only thing I'd take away from Inquisition at any rate.

I tend to agree... I think the decision was made because of how cut down dialogue was in general, but tying disposition gains to picking locks was an odd design choice... Particularly since those characters who liked certain things seemed to be partially designed to do them for you (in case you hadn't invested in those perks) so it was sorta like them saying "Oh, ok, you just do my thing, i'll stand back here and admire you". Keeping gains and losses focused mostly on dialogue and actual choices, rather than frequent activities, helps pace it a little.

I think that should be an achievable variable, depending on the Companion... It's really just an application of If A=X, then B... You could also have Mercs who grow to like you so much that they work for free. Taking that approach would also allow Companions to have more individual desertion thresholds, which could add an another layer of social interaction and bonding.

I tend to find blanket modifiers to be too simplistic... Not ever Dunmer is going to like other Dunmer. In fact, most Dunmer in Morrowind didn't give a rats ass if you were a Dark Elf... you were an Outlander first, Dunmer second. Ideally, I'd like to see a system for applying a group of variables to allow you to tailor individual dispositions, rather than blanket modifiers.

Part of the problem with past dispositions was... Everyone basically reacts to the same things in the same way. Beyond the atrocious mini-game, everyone likes if you help out in town, everyone likes if you're famous, everyone likes if you smell like roses. It takes any sense of individuality out of it.

I'd rather have variables with modifiers applied to NPCs instead of a singular set of criteria applied across the board.

I do agree here though. Personality/Charisma should be the driving characteristic in Disposition, whereas Speechcraft should be more about bypassing the limitations of your relationships.

To somewhat add to the discussion here, I really think they should either downsize the overall size of the cities or legitimately increase the population of cities in the next game. For me it's more immersive to be in small village that's slightly over crowded than a "city" with roughly the population of a small village.

Besides when settlements get attacked and one of the 8 named people die I feel an overwhelming sense of loss since there's hardly anyone in Beth towns to begin with. The Vampire attacks were highly stressful because of this, however those of you who have played Fallout 4 I think will agree with me that: Making the towns people/settlers invincible is not the solution either. There has to be a better way to represent realistically vibrant and alive towns.

What I'm trying to say is towns should be full of NPC's that way when they inevitably die by some means it's a normal event rather than create a ghost town. Populations should fluctuate perhaps even be decimated by raiders bandits.

We've talked about populations before, and while I agree they need to increase, part of what makes TES stand put is the ability to engage with and interact with basically everyone. Not even Fallout has ever really had this, even under Bethesda's control. Losing that ability is giving up something very valuable to the open-ended nature of the game, and I don't think changing that should be done lightly.


Once upon a time, I fully endorsed the idea of generic filler NPCs that were just there to increace the body count. I thought that numbers would equate to a more lively atmosphere. Then I tried some mods that did just that, and played The Witcher 3, and ended up feeling the total opposite. More bodies didn't to squt if they weren't interactive. They became scenery, and actually made the cities feel more staged and less alive than before.


So, for me at least, just adding bodies doesn't cut it. I'd rather immortal NPCs than cardboard cutouts (though I'm not exactly enthralled with them either).


I think that, with some clever use of the resources available, doubling the number of NPCs in game, while giving them individual identities, would be possible. This is where a topical dialogue system, be it Morrowinds or Fallout 4s, is vastly superior to a more personalized one (like in New Vegas, Skyrim, and frankly most RPGs). It gives you something of a set 'Questionnaire' for minor characters; you know what types of questions you're going to need answers for. Thus, you can create more generic characters quicker, without having to sacrifice the interactivity. Most people in a city may only have one or two unique choices of dialogue, but a dozen or more actual options, all with distinct opinions on the same topics. Basically, an improvement over Daggerfall's and Morrowinds dialogue.


But on the whole... I can't say I'm for either downsizing the Cities into Towns (it's a price of the scaling for the world) or filling it with superfluous NPCs that are just there to take up space and/or die.

There has to be a middle ground here, I agree perhaps just doubling it would make enough of a difference. I just think it's something that can be done better as it stands there's usually 10-15 persons in a town with a handful of guards, perhaps increasing the amount of guards or NPC's like 'farmers' would solve this? You don't go up trying to talk to every farmer or guard in a Beth game you understand they're not there to talk much so while it may come of as 'scenery' it's realistic scenery that helps build up the world.

Well, it depends on the character... And I personally would, but i'm from what is apparently one of the top 10 friendliest cities with a population over 300,000 and have no problem talking to or approaching strangers. In fact, some of the best conversation's I've ever had have been with random people I encounter on the street.

Ultimately, it's going to be hard to judge the exact threshold of what will 'feel' populated, because it's largely due to an individuals sensibilities. A 'city' may feel crowded with a few dozen people to someone that's lived in the boonies for their whole life, whereas someone born and raised in Toronto may find it empty if there aren't thousands of bodies around.

I am personally of the opinion that the body count should be increased without sacrificing the interactivity available between the PC and NPCs. The fewer 'Farmers' or 'Villagers' or 'Settlers' there are, the better, even if it means a lower total number of people. Because, ultimately, TES isn't a on-rails story, but rather a more semi-persistent world where you interact with your surroundings and write your own story, and anything you can't interact with or work into that personal story is a problem.

I think part of the problem may be your ability to interact with them. In Witcher 3, those filler NPCs say little more than "Hmm?" when you try to talk to them. In Skyrim, most dialog is NPC-specific, so increasing the number of NPCs leaves them with little to say. Oblivion had generalized dialog for rumors and location info that could be shared, although the amount of this was limited.


If we look at Daggerfall though, it had a pretty good system. For one, you could try to talk to anybody. Second, there were a number of positive, negative, and neutral responses for a given query, which cut down on the copy-paste feeling you get with Morrowind. Third, the response was based on your reputation, given the NPC's class (nobility, commoner, underground/criminal) and your ability to converse with that class, along with your reputation with the region and other such factors. So some people will help you, others won't, some want to but can't, and others wouldn't even if they could. On top of this, it was slightly randomized, so even if you're not in good standing with a particular place, some NPCs may still be nice enough to answer you (and vice versa; even if you're in good standing with a place, some NPCs still won't like you anyway), and some NPCs may be able to help with some things but not others.

The main question would be, given how things are voice acted these days, how much dialog would be needed to make talking to the NPCs worthwhile, while avoiding the feeling of copy-paste responses, and if/how could it be chopped up to construct variations of the line. I'm thinking of how Fallout 4 has some characters say your name when talking to you (Codsworth will have a line with just your name and follow that up with the actual response; improve on and get more creative with a system like that, and you could construct more responses from smaller bits of dialog).

Any attempt at that, presently, would reproduce the absolutely horrific conversations of Oblivion, I fear... You can make audio conversion believable with a little work, and make someone sound like someone else reasonably enough... But i've never seen anything that can assemble sentences from pre-recorded bits and come off as remotely passable...

Oddly enough, i HAVE seen some text-to-speech systems which are promising, but they're still a decade or more out there (at least the ones i saw, which were designed primarily for use as an aide for the visually and hearing impaired).

I'm not sure if 'Pretty Good' is the right term. Despite the fact it was still subject to Bethesda's usual poor utilization (waay to much repetition, not enough variables or character elements) Daggerfall's system was far and above anything I have seen in any RPG before or since. Recreating a system with the same volume and adaptability should be THE goal in dialogue systems for open-ended games like TES.

But yeah, the voice acting is something of a limiting factor. And it's an unfortunate one, since having that voice acting adds so much more, both in terms of atmosphere and character, but also mechanically, that reverting to an older text-model sacrifices too much to really be worth it.

Nor can we rely too heavily on having voice actors voice too many individual NPCs. Doing so creates another Oblivion risk that i don't think any of us want repeated...

There's not really any good options beyond a slow wind-up with somewhat formulaic options with character-individual responses...

Yet.

Cities have to be scaled up more in the next game. Imperial city in Oblivion is the perfect size for a main capital. By having multiple taverns, hotels, hostels and districts provides the player with the illusion of a large crowded city. Not everyone will be interested to talk to the player but a few lines if approached is enough depending on your local popularity.

Companions should have unique lines or maybe facts about areas, perhaps specialising in unique information when certain areas are activated or can even help with activating quests. I enjoyed when some of my companions would talk about blackreach or some other areas which was quite surprising, little details like this add to the immersion.

Skyrim and Oblivion voice acting both have their pro's and cons, I suppose and like anything is down to personal preference.

For instance, I prefer all of the Oblivions voice actors, don't know why, maybe its because they have more of a realistic fantasy middle ages sound to them which seemed to fit perfectly with Cyrodiil. And even though Skyrim has more voice actors, Oblivions NPCs didn't seem as repetitive. Perhaps Wes Andersons imperial soldiers "speak citizen" is more pleasant to the ear than " I heard they are reforming the Dawnguard, Vampire Hunters or something.." or Whiterun's (wake up everyone in the house) merchant "EVERYTHINGS FOR SALE"

This reminds me of Oblivion's Great Forest. Almost every review I've seen for Oblivion raves about how well done the Great Forest is, even if they don't mention it by name. They talk about how dense and life-like it is, but to me it's little more than a park. The forests in Oregon make the Great Forest's trees seem very far apart and amazingly short and even the undergrowth looks more like what you would find in an open field. Not to mention the utter lack of small animals, though this is a problem with nearly every game ever made.

On the other hand, Oregon doesn't have many tall buildings so when I'm somewhere that does they seem kind of odd. To me, Portland is tall, but I know on an intellectual level that New York City dwarfs it in verticality.

Heh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfaEGU45lKA

I feel like most TES games start out with the player being a prisoner. I don't know whether Bethesda would want to change that up or not, but I have an idea for an alternate origin.


Your character wakes up in a temple/hospital with the obligatory amnesia. You have been seriously wounded and have been asleep while the healers worked on you. When you wake up you are strong enough to stand, and this leads into the tutorial where they ask you to pick up/attack stuff, jump, sneak, pick locks (to test your precise motor control), etc, to see how well you have mended before that release you.


You could wake up with less than 100% health and are told you need to take medicine, which would lead into the alchemy tutorial where they show you how to make a healing potion.


You could take this origin in nearly any direction you wanted.

For example, you could have been injured in a recently broken out war. For even more detail, let's say you were a soldier, and you are actually staying in your army's health ward. After going through the primary, basic tutorial, you are deemed healthy enough to leave and are immediately scooped up by the commander who puts you through the more combat-focused tutorials to evaluate your skills.


This could be expanded on and on, but I'll stop there.

Anyone else think this origin setting has a lot of potential?

It's not so much about cities being populated as it is making them feel vibrant. In Skiyrim, Whiterun was supposed to a center of trade, yet it had the same NPC's 99% of the time. Shouldn't farmers come during the day to sell their produce? Shouldn't there be other travelers and adventurers? I don't need to be shoulder to shoulder with generic NPC's while I walk the streets. In real life, cities are constantly evolving. People come and go. I really hope that cities change in the next TES.

I know this can be a divisive issue, but I enjoy TES prisoner opening sequences. I think more open ended starts are best for mods. (The Live another Life mod for Skyrim was great.)

Ah I have heard this before, that in certain parts of the mid-west or what not people actually wave to each other regardless of acquaintance. I think that's a really awesome thing actually however I am from California where no such thing truly exists...

I am more than wiling to admit my solution of generic NPC's kinda...well...svcks but yet I don't want NPC's to be un-killable by hostile NPC's. Perhaps a better AI system of flight or fight can be developed? Townspeople really shouldn't rush into the heart of a Vampire attack daggers drawn when there are guards for this exact purpose.

Is there a realistic way fore NPC's to determine their responses to outside aggression? Someone steals a loaf of bread in the Marketplace? I'm all for Tamerial justice here, with all hands available to ice the thief; however if a Dragon happens to attack the town almost everyone should run away to the tavern or something and hope for the guards to give the all clear.

I guess if we cant drastically increase the amount of NPC's they need to be smart enough to seek shelter to extend their lifespans. I can't be the only one who lost half of Riverwood to an attack, can I?

I'm not so sure. I think they could separately record smaller bits of dialog, like "By Thorig's beard..." or "By the Cliffs of Solitude...", where the engine can somewhat randomly select one for an NPC to say where they would let out an exclamation of exasperation in the line of dialog (and similar for joy, fear, etc). They could improve the flow between bits of dialog so the break is less obvious, but I think it'd work well enough if the bits of dialog were separated better, avoiding breaks where you wouldn't expect any pause, for example.

I certainly wouldn't want to get rid of NPC voice acting. since I agree, it really adds to the atmosphere and characterization, even for minor characters.


However, I actually wouldn't mind having voice actors handle a wide range of NPCs. The only problem I had with Oblivion was the voices were shared across races, which in turn helped remove racial identity. When Orcs sound just like Nords, such that neither has much of a unique flavor to their speech beyond what they both share, that's where the problem is. But I wouldn't mind having a "Nord voice" that most Nord NPCs have, as long as that same voice isn't then also used for another race, so the voice itself can be identifiably Nordic. Skyrim shows the problems you get when you just throw a bunch more voice actors at the "not enough voice actors" problem; the voices all become muddled together such that you can't tell who's who, and without a clean division of who can have what voices, many races still blend together... the same problems Oblivion had, despite having many times more voice actors.



And when you just keep adding more voice actors for general NPCs, you're increasing the amount of voice work as more voice actors will need to say the same things. Otherwise, it'd be annoying if you can end up identifying what characters can and will talk about based on their voice, since actor A wouldn't have lines to talk about a particular topic while actor B did.

It'll always just be a matter of personal preference, but I feel the complete opposite. I actually think the idea that I'm meant to know - or even stand a chance of knowing - everyone in a 'major' city is absurd and immersion-breaking. And I think it feels equally weird to be able to approach strangers so flippantly on just about any subject. Cities in particular should be full of people who won't so much as give you the time of day, in my opinion.

What I would do, however, is randomize who among the population of strangers is willing to talk. By which I mean that for a lot of smaller talking NPCs their appearance and name could be randomized, so that on any given play-through you end up meeting someone with a different name and face, potentially in a different place and time too, insofar story permits. The voice stays the same, but the rest would be randomized. It would work for low level exchanges - overheard banter in the streets, someone with a radiant quest in an inn, and so on.

Again, it's a matter of perspective and, to a good extent, upbringing. My best friend is literally someone I approached in the street one day because she looked upset. The ability to approach literally anyone, and form a relationship of one sort or another, is, for me, the absolute embodiment of realism and immersion.




Randomization starts to break down as soon as you have any persistent relationships though. "I have a wife and 2 kids" means nothing if the NCP can't identify or be identified with their family. Directions can't be established if the NPC has no specific frame of reference. The same with relevant information about the surroundings. If you're just using the same audio files, with no set identity or location, you're not creating any sort of character to interact with or develop. At which point it just becomes a billboard.





I think my main problem with it was the frequency of repetition. Many times, you could end up with 2 NPCs with the same voice actor talking to each other. Part of that problem, I think, stems from how conversations were assembled on Oblivion, and could be mitigated with actual character scripts and some better voice direction (all the actors for Oblivion were good actors, but I don't personally think there's one well voiced character in the whole game, and only two in all the expansions). Spreading them out more would help too as you'd be less apt to recognise a similar voice in Solitude and Riften.


Ultimately though, I think that good voice acting and a good disposition system both require the same base element. Characters. Without decent and diverse characters, theres nothing for voices to represent, and no one to build relationships with.

There are actually mods for Skyrim that handle this problem quite well, causing citizens to run home in the event of a dragon or vampire attack. Replacing excessive use of Essential status with excessive use of Protected status could also work but would be more like using duct tape to fix a broken object rather than replacing it with a fresh one.

There are actually a few concepts I think would be neat to explore to some degree... The game really needs a better method of interacting and moving bodies, and that could translate somewhat to the PC and NPCs picking out wounded and hauling them off to bed. Its not a flawless idea, but it could be used as an interesting cover to more extensive use of Protected status...

Anyway, I picked away at some numbers while bored at work... And with a relatively basic 'framework' for dialogue I worked up, you could pretty solidly establish a characters identity, as well basic directions around town and the surrounding area... With as little as 50 lines of dialogue... You could relatively easily fit in 1000 interactive 'normal' NPCs (about 300 more than Skyrim) and a few hundred more developed characters, with room for quest-specific dialogue, within the approximately 110,000 lines of Fallout 4. Cutting out a voiced protagonist actually gives you a lot of room.

That said... This is more a minimum than anything... Doubling the population of Skyrim, and counting disposition variables to responses... You could very easily push that 110,000 lines before considering any sort of quests. Which isn't in and of its self a problem, as games HAVE done that (SW;toR still holds the record, I believe, at about 200,000) but you're looking at some serious work...

I'm probably going to spend tommorow night picking away at randomization formats to see if I can figure out anything... since it's supposed to be snowing and I don't imagine I will otherwise be busy...