And they're not finished with it, are they? They're still doing maintenance and working on expanded content.

phew. kinda long thread.

but i guess i sorta agree with the ones applauding dark souls combat system. particularly the weapon animations and stagger effects.. also, i think multiplayer systems similar to dark souls would've been better than doing an mmorpg like teso.

there are also other combat systems to consider. like combat systems from mount & blade and chivalry.. mount & blade takes the cake when it comes to mounted combat. (looking forward to m&b2)

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i also agree with the people suggesting seamless transition between interior and exterior.

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i also kinda miss spell customization in morrowind. since as a combat mage i enjoyed casting a custom spell that summons daedra armor and weaponry from casting single spell. there were plenty of ingenious spells the players can customize (but the system needs to be balanced more to avoid gamebreaking exploits)

First off, welcome to the forums. Have a http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/509199713966248809/0F5AF3EEE1F945B23893C1B6E78DDB45573C988D/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside%7C268:268&composite-to=*,*%7C268:268&background-color=black.

While superior in concept to Dark Souls (which, frankly, has the same repetitive problems as games like Assassin's Creed and The Witcher... The combat mechanics themselves really aren't that good, it just has good implementation of varied stats) Mount and Blade was still something of a choppy and poorly coordinated mess. Chivalry was better, but it still lacked the necessary control to really make combat good.

Games like Dead Island and Dying Light, and to an extent Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, are better examples of good melee combat systems.

You need to be able to exercise a degree of fine control in combat that games like Mount&Blade and Chivalry don't allow (by design, as they're tying to be more realistic) but also maintain control over how you attack (something games like Dark Souls don't really allow. You have the weapons move-set, and you're stuck with it). I would say that Dark Messiah and Chivalry both come rather close to what i think is an optimal design, though for different reasons. Dark Messiah has the control, whereas Chivalry has the range of motion (though i think it's controls are kinda rubbish). Mount and Blade 2 looks interesting, and may have solved some of the control issues, but as it's not out yet, i can't say anything for certain.

As an aside, i would personally rather Multilayer stay entirely out of the main series TES. I rather like ESO, but there is absolutely no need for a PvP Multiplayer, or Co-op, or any other such multiplayer nonsense in the main games. IF it were to be considered, i'd prefer the PvP Arena model, simply because it comes with the least concessions.

i disagree.. i think dead island has a horrible melee. attacking felt robotic. i think it also got crap animations. i really don't get your hate for dark souls, counting by the many different posters who disagree with you, you're one of the few people who seems to really hate dark souls that's insistent enough to keep posting that hate over and over again..

though perhaps the "mechanics" is not completely applicable to elder scrolls (especially the roll mechanics), but having smooth attack animations and stagger effects similar to dark souls is definitely a boon. watching a fight in dark souls is exhilarating, compared to elder scrolls. so if anything my main beef with elder scrolls combat system is the janky animations.

so from a pure attack animation + stagger animations standpoint, dark souls is a good game to emulate.

not to mention the aesthetics. darks souls is a beautiful and lightweight game. plus the movement and controls feel so smooth and silky.

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since you brought up assassin's creed. the combat system is a bit like button mashing, but the thing to look at is the way the animations are setup. those are very beautiful attack, block, stagger, grab, etc.. animations. i think that kind of "smoothness" when it comes to battles is what people really wants to see in elder scrolls.

plus the parkour aspect of assassin's creed is definitely fun to play with. (perhaps like a movement type only available to characters with light armor and high acrobatic skills in elder scrolls) if done properly, parkour would be a great addition to TES.

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as for the examples you gave for the reference of games that you think has "good combat" mechanics, the only one i would agree on is dark messiah.

i think dying light is fun, not for the combat but for the parkour mechanics. but if i compare dead island to dead rising, i'd prefer dead rising.

the thing is : most of the stuff we describe here are based on our own personal biases and subjective opinions. so if you hate X or Y game, then cool.

other people don't share that hatred and their opinions are just as valid as your opinions.

instead of bounty hunters they could get the player ostracized from a portion of the markets meaning they cant buy things from half the vendors in a city.

I don't its 'hate' against Dark Souls so much as he's simply confused as to why people keep comparing the Dark Souls combat mechanics to ES. It doesn't translate at all, Dark Souls is 3rd person. The combat (including animations) are based around you having a greater awareness of what's around you. Dark Souls in 1st person would be an absolute nightmare.

It could even happen in stages. If you miss the first deadline, then you get banned from buying stuff in town, but they would still allow you to sell stuff. If you miss the second deadline, then they send a single debt collector to track you down who you can pay off, shoo away, or kill. If he returns without the money or simply doesn't return, then they post a bounty on your head and possibly charge you with a crime and bounty hunters start appearing.

EDIT: If the banks hand out quests, they could have you be the debt collector or bounty hunter. Sometimes they just need to be asked nicely, sometimes they need to be killed, and sometimes they're already dead and you need to recoup the bank's losses from their assets. These would also work well as radiant quests.

Well, i do hate Dark Souls... But that's not why i'm against it's combat (at least in this case. It's probably the best 3rd person combat system i've played with, but it's just as dull and repetitive as the others, only covered over with enemy behaviour adding a little spice to the mix). You are right, however, it's 3rd person design is one of the major issues i have with it. It simply wouldn't function in first person, which presents problems.

Combat in TES needs to be able to be used in both first and 3rd person. Having totally different controls and approaches depending on your camera causes too many issues, from switching back and forth to AI to Animations.

Dying Light's combat wasn't great. What it DID do well, however, was hit detection. Unlike Skyrim (and all Bethesda games, unfortunately) Dying Light did very well in implementing the sort of arc-targeting that is relatively common in 3rd person games, rather than using a FPS style straight line that most first person games use. By that i mean, when you swing a weapon, the game doesn't identify what you hit based on where you're pointing, but rather where your weapon travels. It also handles Stamina and attacks well, allowing you to continue attacking even at zero stamina, but dramatically decreasing the damage you do (while also having rapidly regenerating Stamina).


True, all these elements are also present in Dark Souls, but Dying Light is a First Person game and manages to accomplish similar things without sacrificing orientation and control (something which Chivalry has problems with). That's why i say it's a better source of inspiration, because it's acomplishing similar things in a more relevant game-play scheme.

I wouldn't compare Dead Rising to either of them at all. You might as well compare Battlefield to Overwatch, simply because you can shoot things in each game. Just because a game allows you to hit zombies with things doesn't mean they're comparable.

Dark Souls probably has the best 3rd person combat in the industry right now. As much as i dislike the game, i can't deny that. But the current model for 3rd person combat in general isn't that good (at least, not right now... We'll see what For Honor manages to pull off) and suffers from repetition, borderline automation, and those stupid, stupid rolls. That's not to say TES has ever had very good combat either, but there are far better sources of inspiration given the first person basis of TES's gameplay (even if you CAN go 3rd person if you choose).

Animations are a seperate issue altogether. Bethesda has always struggled with their animation. Fallout 4 showed remarkable improvement over Skyrim, but they're still behind the curve in that regard.

Beautiful and lightweight? It's certainly well rendered and full of detail, but i wouldn't call it beautiful and lightweight. Drab, monochrome and morose, maybe... I could tolerate a total overhaul of TES's gameplay into a Dark Souls clone, but it's aesthetics is not something i ever want to see emulated.

Dark Souls is pretty, but it's art direction...would only be appropriate in like, Daggerfall. I'd rather keep the more consistent stylings of Morrowind and Skyrim, for the sake of consistency more then anything else. That, and I vastly prefer the latter frankly.


Small side note, I actually kinda like Bloodborne more then Dark Souls, odd as that is. I feel like taking actions in that game feels a lot better to play then DS, despite being the same game. Still wouldn't want to see a simile to it in TES though.

Souls game are monochrome? You should disable ENB mod for a while in Skyrim to see what's really monochrome.

Actually Souls started as first person games, though combat was a lot simpler.

What do you think guys about Souls combat features like backstab, parry and guard break? I think they might work well with first person and could even add some depth to perk system. Just imagine, a perk tree that unlocks backstab, and further you can unlock with more perks damage done with these and wider window.

They wouldn't be new to the series. Well, backstabbing anyway. It was a actual skill in Daggerfall IIRC.


Here's the thing. Would I like to see parrying, back-stabbing (which exists...if the blow kills the target) and guard breaks (which already exists)? Of course. Does that mean I want it to function like Dark Souls? Not one bit.

Exactly. Being able to disrupt a blocking opponent, knifing an unaware individual in the back (in general combat, if you get behind them you already have a serious advantage, you don't really need anything extra) and better handling of staggering are all things i think should be part of the overall combat package.

But there are more relevant examples of how to achieve those goals, within the style of TES's combat, without even having to draw comparisons to Dark Souls.

aesthetics isn't just about the colors and the lighting. things like character designs, armor designs, enemy designs, etc.. seem to be underwhelming for vanilla TES games. thankfully it is easily modable, but i think they should really address those issues. coz most default characters in bethesda games are kinda fugly.

not to mention cloth dynamics and animation in bethesda games are really sub-par.

so when it comes to contextually smooth animations. i think assassin's creed games are quite good with that. most times the way they move easily reflects their momentum. the way they attack, block, stagger, etc.. also translates the momentum of motion better. basically these are the stuff that would be great to have in TES cos the default animations tend to be horrible.

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i sorta agree to this. but when people try to reference different games like dark souls, etc.. people don't usually mean they want a carbon copy of that game. it's mostly just a quick way to describe the same mechanics without using too many words.

Although I've never played it still agree Dark Souls serves as a good inspiration for some TES combat mechanics. Such as having more defensive options like parrying and dodging (which totally fits into TES aesthetically), from watching it, it does have a lot smoother animations and range of enemy attacks than TES. Weapons seem a lot more unique and weapon choice seems to really matter like how heavy weapons drain stamina more but deal a lot more damage is very interesting especially with how stamina works in Dark Souls. The main problem with watching it though, is that it looks terribly slow.

I don't think Dark Souls combat suits TES. I would rather have Mount & Blade combat; it's much more intuitive.

While I adore M&B's combat, it's important to remember that TES is supposed to be played with either kb&m or a controller, and I'm not certain you could adapt M&B's mechanics to a controller without making it incredibly clunky and/or simplified.


It does strike a nice balance between player and character skill, though, so it's not say there's nothing to be gained from it, but simply porting it to TES might not work (not to imply that's what you meant - more of a general observation).

I'd rather have Severance than Dark Souls for combat, hah.

Although i agree with the battle side in this DS3+Skyrim thingy, the online side would be awesome. I mean these bloodstains and summon signs, to help with the bosses.

I also hope bethesda will make some bosses like the Abyss Watchers and The Dancer of Boreal Valley. I just love them and dat ass tho

That would work fine for Dark Souls where lore and world aren't important but TES tries to show a world not a video game like Dark Souls. Dark Souls does a pathetic job at attempting to make a realistic world and instead goes more nonsensical designs whereas TES is realistic.

Little things i want


Better map markers with the ability to highlight the narker and add a comment-dragon priest lair come back when stronger or merchant sells ingredient


Better sniths merchants/more of them-every town should have a merchant and basic smithing stuff


Little boats and boat markers on map-wouldnt mind a crafting system


If i take anise cabin it become mine


Wouldnt mind a way to identify where i store things.


Way to give followers stuff to sell at market or even dismiss and sell. Way to identify their carry weight


If i get assigned a delivery task either a way to go back and say no thanks or give follower task.


I should be able to get married in other cities/get hair cuts/nose jobs


The preston f4 assignments was a step backwards and needs to be scrapped

Well, we'll have to disagree there. I haven't found any of the designs in Dark Souls armour to be particularly inspiring or interesting, and it's menagerie of enemies was rather same-y. It's execution of its designs were great, but it failed to really establish a visual style that made it feel distinct. The same problem is turning up in lots of games, mind you, with an emphasis towards 'realistic' clothing and armour design brought on by influences like Game of Thrones which has made many games fall into a pit of same-ness... Something which has afflicted the FPS genre for years, to the point where half the time you dont even know what game you're looking at... Admitedly, Dark Souls isn't as far down that hole as The Witcher, what with its somewhat Alice in Wonderland flair from time to time, but its still lacking individuality.


I do agree with this, however:



To an extent, at least. I wouldn't say that the TES animations are horrible, as they do their job (conveying visual indicators as to what's happening) but they are definately below the curve and limiting in what can be done with them. Games like Assassin's Creed and Dark Souls are really good at using animations to tell you what's happening, but don't sacrifice the fluidity and motion in the process, which is something TES needs to work on... But that's something of a wider issue, not something specific to Combat.


Part of the animation issue, however, is the ability to change between views. Play GTA5 in first person, and then consider how disorienting it would be to be tacked onto Geralt or Etzio as they moved around. Switching between the two means you either need different animations for both, or a generalised set to be used in either. And in the former, you need the animations to be easily identifiable in either mode to maintain the sake mechanical function.




I actually disagree with this (though I somewhat agree with everything else, in concept at least). Preston's jobs weren't a step backwards, but were a major step forwards... The step backwards was in their use as a major element rather than a clearly optional side-element. We're they repetitive? Sure. We're they simple? Yes. It they were a great example of Radiant Questing that can serve as filler for other groups and factions. The key, though, is FILLER. It can't be used to form the basis of a Faction, as was done with the Minutemen. Using it as a system to inject Guild Contracts into the Fighters Guild, on the other hand, is great.

instead of dark souls soapstones, just use taverns and guilds to let people know you're open to multiplay.

ie :

-people who joins the dark brotherhood could have options to act as assassins to accept contracts and invade people in their worlds.

-people who joins the warriors guild can act as mercenaries to help defend people being invaded by assassins or just to act as bodyguards for bosses or dragons for a limited amount of time.

-people who joins the mages guild can join other worlds and help close oblivion portals or help deal with other magical phenomenon or whatever.

-people who joins the thieves guild can go to other worlds to fence/trade stolen normal items like a merchant, or go and steal valuable artifacts from vaults (ie : maybe each world can have 1 or several rare artifacts that will give the owner some unique powers or stat boost or whatever as long as players put it in their vaults)

players can join multiple guilds, but their purpose for joining other player worlds would be based on the contracts they accept.

(ie : you will be considered as an assassin in a world if you accept a contract to invade it, or a warrior in another world if you accept a bodyguard contract, etc)

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also, i don't like dark souls glowing auras, i don't think it would fit with TES.

so i think players should just be shown with their normal mesh and textures. as long as the host has compatible mods to display it.

if not, then players joining your world can be displayed with a default avatar based on the guild they represent.. ie : they will use a default assassin, or warrior, or mage, or thief mesh or an adventurer mesh if the host doesn't have the required mods to display your character properly or if the host chose an option to only display default meshes for multiplay. (to prevent lag from loading custom meshes/textures)

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players can then use one of those horse carriages stationed in every major city to spawn in other people's world if they get an invite or if they accept a contract from other players requesting them to invade another player's world or to join them in their world. etc..

invitations are different from contracts. contracts may have time limits to achieve a specific goal, but invites are indefinite until the invitation is rescinded.

if host doesn't have the same texture/mesh mods you have with your character, their game will display the default "adventurer's avatar".

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taverns, can be used to "request" assistance by letting you make "contracts" with other players who are members of certain "guilds".

ie : you can hire assassins to kill someone (maybe a thief who stole an artifact in your base) or to hire a bodyguard from the warriors guild or hire a thief to steal or trade for a specific artifact, etc..

the higher the "difficulty rating" of the world, the higher the cost of making a contract. difficulty rating should scale based on the level of the player's world that needs to be invaded or joined.

having a "difficulty rating" on contracts would also prevent low-level players from accepting contracts beyond their player level.

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i also hope that in TES VI, they would add similar base building mechanics similar to FO IV, allowing players to customize their own settlements, defenses, vaults, etc..

to make it more fun for unwanted thieves who try to steal your collection of artifacts. haha.

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edit :

when it comes to armor designs, vanilla TES is kinda meh. i mean just look at those fugly necromancer robes in skyrim.. hahaha.. even the first few mobs at the start of DS III had better outfit.

for the most part, the thing i like most with the other games are the cloth and hair dynamics. but when it comes to armor designs, TES can look in it's own modding scene for inspiration if they don't feel like using other games for reference.

i disagree with this. at first i didn't think it was possible for parkour and dodge rolling to be applicable to FPS, but games like mirror's edge forced me to reevaluate that way of thinking..

it is possible.

the question only lies on what tweaks TES needs to work on to make it more "palatable" for TES players.

Oh, I didn't mean it was impossible. Mirrrors Edge did a good job of showing that you can manage that sort of mobility without the motion sickness of the later GTA model. But part of the issue is, Mirrors Edge only played in First Person, so you never saw how Faith moved. All the motions and animations were normalized for first person play.


When you have both first and Third Person, things get a little more problematic. If you just paste the camdera in a fixed location on the Character, and run everything through the 3rd person animations, the amount of extra movement can become disorienting. If you just keep it at a fixed elevation (such as what WoW does) then you lose the sense of immersion and connection with the Character that the mode typically allows. If you have entirely different PC animations for first person, it's increasing your workload to achieve the same result.


It's definately not an insurmountable problem, but it does make animation something if a different bird.

While I liked Mirror's Edge a lot, it was disorienting at first and it did give plenty of people motion sickness.

Yeah, it definitely wasn't perfect. While i think it did a reasonable job i actually didn't like Mirrors Edge at all, and have virtually no interest in the equal... I think Dying Light actually did a better job of the Parkour and mobility thing without being disorienting, but it missed a few elements...

One game that does surprisingly well on that sort of movement is Overwatch. Various types of expanded mobility used through Pharah, Genji, Mercy and Lucio and even Reaper cover a wide array of movements (from climbing to wall-running to hovering) without forcibly switching camera (like Rienheart's charge) and without any jarring camera movements.