I feel the same. Ultimately, those beginning segments are too short to really get a grip on deciding how you want to play. At best, it may help nudge a seasoned role-player who's winging a new character, to see how "their character" reacts to something before selecting it in chargen, and a seasoned role-player is the type of person that could do without it.

In Skyrim, we didn't really have a "live" chargen anyway. All it really was, was a delayed race/name selection. You could put that at the very start before the opening cart ride, and that's all you need to do to start the character and begin playing. Everything else is handled dynamically throughout the game. At that point, the starting sequence/dungeon only serves to act as a tutorial and start the main story. The former is unnecessary for most repeat play-throughs (and can be handled better for first play-throughs), and the latter doesn't need a whole forced scripted introductory sequence/exposition dump and dungeon that you must go through before being allowed to start exploring. There are far better ways to introduce the main quest/story than shoving it in your face before you can really begin playing (even Morrowind makes sure you know you're a special prisoner being released and you need to take that package to Caius in Balmora to get more orders, before being allowed to start exploring).

Then again, before that the only choice you made that matters is race/looks (and IIRC you get an autosave just before chosing name, race etc). The Warrior/Mage/Thief Stones are encountered after leaving the tutorial... And you'd be hard pressed to have leveled anything, so you wouldn't have distributed any trait points yet...

I tend to agree. I think the idea behind it was that you'd make relevant selections at such a time as what they govern became relevant to the tutorial phase, but it ended up being something of an awkward interaction.

It's unfortunate, however, that New Vegas than proceed to spoon feed you unavoidable character identity which, particularly on your first playthrough, required you to constantly re-write your own backstory.

I give NV a pass there since Fallout's always given the player character a set history or personality. In light of that, I enjoyed finding out who Courier 6 was. Conversely, TES is more about creating your own character from scratch so I would have been disappointed if they ever said why the Champion of Cyrodiil or the Nerevarine was imprisoned or what the LDB was doing at the Skyrim border.

Yeah, and New Vegas had the buffer of the fact that you had been shot in the head to allow for rather dramatic gaps in memory. In hindsight, it wasn't that bad, it was just a jarring experience going through because it's such a reverse of standard RPG identity.


The more open-ended nature of TES does have some inherent problems, despite its freedom. The inability to springboard relationships, establish motivations, or even manage simple conversation and interaction makes such games a significantly different beast than more structured RPGs like Fallout, or The Witcher. It's not insurmountable, of course, just requires something if a different approach, both from the development side, ans from the Player side.


Thinking about it, I am somewhat open to a more Oblivion-Like tutorial model, where you go through creation gradually as you go through your intro sequence. I say this because it functionally lets you take things for a spin before jumping in full force... But at the same time, it would require that those character design decisions be more obviously impactful, otherwise yours still basically making choices. blind to their overal impact. And if you can skip it, you're still going to need a more traditional, front-end Character Generator. What I don't want to see, however, is one of those questionnaires...

We all want TESVI, but releasing TES titles at the rates of FIFA, Madden, etc. releases is a horrible idea. No offense, because I don't want to sound rude. It would greatly dilute the quality of each game. Also, games like FIFA, Madden, even with whatever new features they implement, are still a huge part just roster updates of teams. With TES, you have to do far more than just implement new characters, which is way more difficult than virtually updating rosters of real-life teams. TES games are significantly bigger.

Anyways, I forgot about Oblivion's auto-save feature right before leaving the sewers where you could change the character. That could be neat to implement again, depending on how the tutorial is in TESVI.

I'm all for having a more in-depth character creation a la Daggerfall, with some tweaks of course. Having some of the flexibility that Skyrim allowed for character growth, combined with some of the predisposed character traits from decisions he/she would have made earlier on in their lives like earlier TES games had would be ideal, IMO.

It's something that I find a lot of people miss, and something I have a tendejcy to bring up a good deal around here (though, by this point i think everyone here recognises it) but, this is what Skyrims system is about. Growth. You BECOME someone, rather than start off as someone. Its entire system for identity is about building as you go, and while it still suffers from the usual Bethesda poor-execution, I think it's an amazing philosophy.


Were it not for one fact... You don't magically spring from the ground 10 seconds before the title screen. While the freeform growth of your character throughout their adventures as a massive improvement over the previous Class-Driven progression dynamic, the total lack of any differentiation system to influence your starting point was a huge step backwards. And that's something that really should be addressed moving forward.

Even that's debatable. I'm kind of fond of the theory that the LDB didn't exist until they woke up on that carriage and everyone's memories were tampered with. You have the favor of Akatosh and almost certainly Talos so it's not out of the realm of possibility. For that matter, the CoC doesn't even know why they're in jail.

Well, considering the state of the Empire, that's not too out there. Uriel's rule was just one step above garbage. He was like if a Zodiac Crazed hippy were put in charge of the US, and made all their decisions through Tarot Cards and the alignment of the stars. While the 3rd Edition PGE paints a rather rosy picture of Tamriel, past information from a less biased source indicates the entire Empire was going to [censored], and fast. Random arrests with no formal charges aren't too outlandish.

IIRC, post-Tharn was a pretty good time for him, relatively speaking. The Empire was on the verge of collapse given Tharn's machinations, and that Uriel was able to hold it together for a few more decades until his assassination by Daedric cultists doesn't show him to be a bad or incompetent ruler. Besides, you still appeared in a cell that was supposed to remain empty since it was a secret escape route, something the Blades (Tamriel's top spies) couldn't explain. While that allows you, the player, to spin it however you wish, it does also leave open the possibility that you did just appear from nowhere.

There was the War of the Bretony, which destabilised Highrock for 15 years. Hammerfell was simmering in a state of near open war for the entirety of his reign. There were multiple unsuccessful campaigns to try and consolidate the slipping control of Blackmarsh (the Blackwood company rising out of the last one). Coscades, in Morrowind, indicates that political assassinations are growing more common, there was unrest amongst the nobility because of Uriel's ineffectual rulership, and may suspected his heirs had all been replaced by impostors and Daedra. While it's difficult to seperate rumours from fact, it also seems that just before Uriel's death, several provinces (notably Morrowind and Skyrim, and Valenwood and Elsweyr) teetered on war as well.

He had lots of people conspiring against him, sure, but Uriel's reign was not a prosperous one.

The Empire is clearly in decline in 3E 433. Forts are no longer being maintained. The roads are not safe. We are asked to investigate Imperial corruption because the Empire is not doing anything to stop it. Rumors of uprisings in other provinces are on everyone's lips. The Empire is oblivious of a well-orchestrated plot to assassinate the entire Royal family. It's clear the devs would like us to infer that the Empire is on its last legs.

Forget infer, Daggerfall explicitly says the end of the Septim Empire is near it in the opening cinematic. Given the state of the Empire by the time of Arena, it wouldn't have still existed by the time of Oblivion if he wasn't doing something right, but it was a sinking ship since Tharn. Nothing could've saved it, but Uriel was able to do something to keep it from immediately falling apart on his return.

I agree. Due to Tharn, there would always be rumors about Uriel and his descendants. Not to mention the more direct political damage that Tharn caused. Only a new dynasty could have saved the Third Empire. Incidentally, this is exactly what happened. Uriel seemed to have some knowledge of the future; it's possible he tried his best to keep the Empire together with the hope that after his assassination a new dynasty would arise and keep the continent from completely going to [censored]. Not that that plan (if it existed) worked out all that well...

Still, the Septim dynasty was living on borrowed time. Uriel must have done something right to prevent total collapse as long as he did.

Considering we still haven't seen that total collapse 200 years later... I don't really think he did. The Dynasty ended, sure, but the Septim Empire survived them, and maintained a relatively stable state for a significant amount of time.

But this isn't really the place to discuss whether or not Uriel VII was a competent ruler. The overall point of bring it up was, randomly being arrested and having no idea why you're in that cell isn't that outlandish. Waking up in a cart and having no experience doing anything beyond breathing (and, considering the dialogue options in Skyrim, even that is questionable) is a little more of an extreme 'Spontaneous Genesis'.

The forts in Morrowind looked pretty well maintained to me...

(The forts in Cyrodiil are ruins from Reman's era - it's even said so in-game)

And considering Cyrodiil's legal system, they may have been arrested for stealing an apple five years ago or something.

I have always wanted to know just why the hell Jagar Tharn usurped the Imperial Throne. It isn't really specified what his purpose was for throwing Uriel into Oblivion. Whether it was just power, wanting to watch the world burn, etc. we don't know, except that Mehrunes Dagon helped him. Anyways, seeing as how Uriel ruled for 65 years I'm inclined to believe he wasn't totally incompetent. And from sources in lore it sounds like he did a solid job as Emperor up until Tharn imprisoned him. His level of competence afterwards could be debated for quite some time though, sure. But yes, such a discussion is best left for another thread.

Here's some of my ES:VI wishes, let me know what you think!



? Oblivion style local maps. A big part of the fun I had in oblivion's dungeons was the dungeoneering aspect of having to check my map semi-frequently to make my way around. I think this helped to promote a maze-like feeling and I think this was largely lost in skyrim's more straightforward dungeons.


?Oblivion style in-menu art. Skyrim's barebones design was in some regards a huge improvement in terms of manuevering quick menus and effectively viewing individal objects, however oblivion had a moderate amount of character in its in-menu art, such as weapons, level up quotes, and quest banners that I truly missed in Skyrim.


?Morrowind style equipment. Allowing clothes under or over armor can help to promote moments where players are excited to see that they can live out their ideas and wishes as they play. Adding spears, slings, and a generally wider variety of basic weapon categories would go a long way in this regard as well. Letting players do more in general can promote immersion and characer development, and with fallout 4 expanding some ways in this regard I have faith in the future of ES. The thing fallout 4 detracted from in this regard was that it had too few categories of weapons and needed, in my opinion, more characer to its weapon variety. That being said there are small fixes that can be made to alleviate this. You shouldn't find a randomized pipe rifle in a 200 year old sealed vault. You also shouldn't have found 1000 pipe rifles before the first assault rifle (see level zones below) you should find many types and have to find a way to work with it (seems fun).


?Expanding character options. I would encourage allowing players to reach, perhaps hidden, milestones that affect how they play as they progress. Skyrims perk system did this but it had too much focus on numerical values as opposed to ability, and there was no surprise in advancing in skill. Oblivion's journeyman system is a good example of the direction I'd like to see the system going; training hand to hand eventually added damage from your gauntlets as you reached a certain efficiency, and to know this you had to master it which made accomplishing it all the more exciting and promoted a need to learn about the game so you could find these secrets. Perhaps the abilities you choose in the level up menu are vague hints at your new ability that you only see once they're available ("your time spent in meditation and practicing your form has allowed your fists to pierce a new veil" could represent a skill you acquire from practicing hand to hand and having a high willpower that allows you to punch ghosts/daedra. This is strictly an example). This would promote people to think of it as "oh I have to train like a monk to become more poweful" as opposed to "oh I have to raise my one handed to become more powerful". Taking this further and applying it to the stat system also seems rewarding, an example being something akin to raising your strength attribute could allow the use of larger weapons (which brings us to...)


?Returning to the Attribute system. Skyrim promoted a simpler way of showing how a character grew in strength (use one handed =better at one handed weapons) and while this had its advantages it leaves an immersion gap where characters will have mastered a skill and be a simpleton at other similar skills, and this is bittersweet in my opinion. I think if you were to bring back the attributes it would solve this problem (train one handed =better at one handed + get stronger) and makes creating a type of character more satisfying as your skills will all come together as you grow.


?level specific zones. I dislike encountering the same difficulty for too long almost as much as I dislike being under or over leveled. I think level specific zones, or even just more dangerous zones like the minotaur area in oblivion, would help make the world feel more dangerous in areas which is really fun. I think I'm not alone in that once I'm experienced with a game I like to challenge myself, and high level zones allow players like that to test themselves against an area that would otherwise kill them, for the promise of the power that follows the challenge. I don't think removing or nerfing the harder zones with better loot makes the game less oppressive I think it cheapens the area for those who try to take them on from the beginning. There should be specific places where the game is harder.


Honorable mentions to my favorite bethesda features: magic maze in Skyrim (forgot the name), unique high level dragon types in Skyrim (especially the water dragons, please more big water creatures!!) Dunwitch cameo in fallout 4 (should've had it a bit scarier and with more squids Imo but still good), lockpicking system from oblivion (best one ever), knights of the nine dlc (need more love for paladin characters).

My opinion is the exact opposite. I hated the look of Oblivion's menus. I thought they looked terrible. The design was bizarrely unintuitive, the icons were ugly, the colors were uninspiring and the map looked like complete crap. We couldn't even see the entire map. I hated having to push the map around to see where I was going. There was no reason to only allow us to see a small section of the map at one time.

This I agree with. One of my first and biggest gripes with Oblivion on day one was the removal of so many apparel slots. It still galls me, actually. Roleplaying is all about choice. The more choice the better.

Sorry, but I can't stand this idea. I want to know exactly what I am choosing. I don't want developers to play games with me. Tell me what I am choosing so that I can make an informed decision.

I agree with this completely. I bitterly miss Attributes from past games. I think it was a terrible descion to remove the traditional seven Attributes and I hope they return in TES VI. I would implement them differently than they were implemented in the past, but I would definitely bring them back.

I think Skyrim does this better than any Elder Scrolls game Bethesda has made. It certainly does it much better than Oblivion. There are dungeons with minimum levels of 24 in the game. That is more severe than anything I know of in the rest of the series. Giant camps are far more dangerous and level-specific than the Minotaur area in Oblivion.

As far as overland "zones" go, I am not a fan of MMO-style "zones" in non-linear open-world games. I don't even like the word "zone." To me, "zones" feel arbitrary. MMO-style "zones" and non-linear open-world games are fundamentally incompatible as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to be forced to postpone doing my next Mages Guild quest because it takes me to an area that is too high for my level.

It there is a solid, story-based reason for a certain area to be particularly dangerous, that is a different story. Morrowind did this well, I think. There was a story-based reason for Red Mountain be higher-level than the rest of Vvardenfell, and I support that. But unless there is a genuine reason for a "zone" to be difficult I think it is a bad idea in a series like this.

Firstly, thanks for reading. None of this is meant to be pejorative if it sounds like it, I'm just interested in your thoughts. Been looking to discuss.

I totally agree when it comes to the dragging the screen and smaller map limitations of oblivion, i think skyrim's overworld map is in every way better. I'd refine my statement, because you're right in that regard, to being that I prefer the art style of the Oblivion local maps to the Skyrim local maps. This also translates to the menu design, I felt that Skyrim looked like a computer interface and preferred that Oblivion looked like my character's journal. But I do agree that oblivion's icons and maps could have looked better than they were, and that Skyrim improved upon the ability to use the menu and maps entirely. My ideal situation would be a combination of the two.

Sorry, but I can't stand this idea. I want to know exactly what I am choosing. I don't want developers to play games with me. Tell me what I am choosing so that I can make an informed decision.