[BRIANNA]

Is there a cost (outside of time spent) for filing extensions? I know that there is a $100 fee due at the time the SOU is submitted.

I believe so, and there's also the cost of paying their lawyers. I doubt it's very much money but as a business it doesn't make sense for them to keep a useless trademark going if it costs money to do so.

[pinar]

So, the trademark that is expiring in July is the merchandise trademark right? What about the other two Skyrim trademarks? They could let the merchandise trademark expire, and have more time to announce Skyrim, as the other two trademarks would still be active, then when ESV is released, they'll have the merchandise trademark renewed by then.

What do you think about this?

[louise hamilton]

So, the trademark that is expiring in July is the merchandise trademark right? What about the other two Skyrim trademarks? They could let the merchandise trademark expire, and have more time to announce Skyrim, as the other two trademarks would still be active, then when ESV is released, they'll have the merchandise trademark renewed by then.

What do you think about this?

Erm, doesn't the game related trademark expire like days apart from the first one?

[Lizbeth Ruiz]

*sigh*

here are pretty much the confirmed facts.
- ZeniMax bought the tradmark of 'Skyrim' thati s going to expire July 31st.
- Bethesda have stated they will do another Elder Scrolls game
- Bethesda are currently developing a game.
- Obsidian have said Bethesda are not currently working another Fallout game.
- Pete has said that E3 is a bad place to annonce a game, has instead said QuakeCon would be better

My conclusion.
If the trademark is indeed releated to TES5, then I suspect an annoncement before July 31st, with a bigger reveal at QuakeCon (hence so they pull in both ID and Bethseoft fans to the same event, helping both companies). This is the theory that makes the most sense to me, if fits all the facts.

Makes sense. It certainly would be nice.

[Queen Bitch]

So, the trademark that is expiring in July is the merchandise trademark right? What about the other two Skyrim trademarks? They could let the merchandise trademark expire, and have more time to announce Skyrim, as the other two trademarks would still be active, then when ESV is released, they'll have the merchandise trademark renewed by then.

What do you think about this?

As far as I can see the extensions last for a period of 6 months.
Trademark 77017500 (Game) has been extended for the 5th time on 29-1-2010. That would make the expiry date 29-7-2010.
Trademark 77044247 (Manuals) has been extended for the 5th time on 27-1-2010. That would make the expiry date 27-7-2010.
The last one is 77051779 (Clothing) which has been extended for the 5th time on 13-3-2010. That would make the expiry date 13-9-2010.

The manuals trademark actually is the first to expire.

The fees for the extensions are calculated as a fee per class (apart from the other administration costs and such, I didn't check for those):
Game (Class 009) = 9 * $150 = $ 1,350 (funny how this seems to be the cheapest one)
Manuals (Class 016) = 16 * $150 = $ 2,400
Clothing (Class 025) = 25 * $150 = $3,750

[Mel E]

The manuals trademark actually is the first to expire.

Okay, I see.

Erm, doesn't the game related trademark expire like days apart from the first one?

As far as I can see the extensions last for a period of 6 months.
Trademark 77017500 (Game) has been extended for the 5th time on 29-1-2010. That would make the expiry date 29-7-2010.
Trademark 77044247 (Manuals) has been extended for the 5th time on 27-1-2010. That would make the expiry date 27-7-2010.
The last one is 77051779 (Clothing) which has been extended for the 5th time on 13-3-2010. That would make the expiry date 13-9-2010.

Is that so? If so, then I'm relieved.

The fees for the extensions are calculated as a fee per class (apart from the other administration costs and such, I didn't check for those):
Game (Class 009) = 9 * $150 = $ 1,350 (funny how this seems to be the cheapest one)
Manuals (Class 016) = 16 * $150 = $ 2,400
Clothing (Class 025) = 25 * $150 = $3,750

So it costs them some money every time they go for another extension. It's making more sense to me now. Why would Zenimax waste money getting extensions if they weren't going to announce ESV this summer? If they weren't going to announce it, the logical thing to do is not waste money on the final extensions and drop the trademarks earlier, to be renewed at a later time.

[sunny lovett]

Is that so? If so, then I'm relieved.

It does seem that way.

For anyone who wants to do some digging with me:

http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/index.jsp

> go to "search marks"
> go to "free form search"
> type in either Skyrim or Zenimax and submit Query.

Via the "TARR" link you can then check the actual status in full detail.

The costs I found here:
http://www.bpmlegal.com/ptofeetmk.html

[lolly13]

As far as I can see the extensions last for a period of 6 months.
Trademark 77017500 (Game) has been extended for the 5th time on 29-1-2010. That would make the expiry date 29-7-2010.
Trademark 77044247 (Manuals) has been extended for the 5th time on 27-1-2010. That would make the expiry date 27-7-2010.
The last one is 77051779 (Clothing) which has been extended for the 5th time on 13-3-2010. That would make the expiry date 13-9-2010.

The manuals trademark actually is the first to expire.

The fees for the extensions are calculated as a fee per class (apart from the other administration costs and such, I didn't check for those):
Game (Class 009) = 9 * $150 = $ 1,350 (funny how this seems to be the cheapest one)
Manuals (Class 016) = 16 * $150 = $ 2,400
Clothing (Class 025) = 25 * $150 = $3,750

You're using the wrong numbers. Normally they would have a 6th extension but that's not the case here because there's a 36-month maximum on the amount of time you can extend the trademark from the Notice of Allowance. If you go back in there and add on 36 months to the dates that the Notice of Allowance's were issued, you'll get the true expiration dates, the closest of which being July 31st.

[Darren Chandler]

So it costs them some money every time they go for another extension. It's making more sense to me now. Why would Zenimax waste money getting extensions if they weren't going to announce ESV this summer? If they weren't going to announce it, the logical thing to do is not waste money on the final extensions and drop the trademarks earlier, to be renewed at a later time.

There may be a reason for that too. The costs for a renewal are considerable:

Renewals cost:

Application for Renewal, Per Class $400
Surcharge for Late Renewal, Per Class $100.

This can also explain why they filed the merchandising trademark as late as they did. That would cost 25 * $400 = $10,000
And if they were stupidly late: 25 * $500 = $12,500
I wouldn't want that one to expire either !!!

[Amanda Leis]

You're using the wrong numbers. Normally they would have a 6th extension but that's not the case here because there's a 36-month maximum on the amount of time you can extend the trademark from the Notice of Allowance. If you go back in there and add on 36 months to the dates that the Notice of Allowance's were issued, you'll get the true expiration dates, the closest of which being July 31st.

You're absolutely right, my bad.

Here's what the Trademark Office said about it:

"You may continue to file Extension Requests every six (6) months for up to a total of five (5) extensions of time. You must use the mark in commerce and file an SOU within three years (36 months) of the NOA issuance date. For more information, see TMEP Section 1108.01.
NOTE: The six-month periods are based solely on the issuance date of the NOA, and NOT from the filing date of any extension; i.e., the six-month period following issuance of the Notice of Allowance (or any subsequent six-month extension period) will not be cut short by the grant of an extension."

Making the expiry dates:

Game: 14-8-2010 29-7-2010
Manuals: 31-7-2010 27-7-2010
Merchandising: 11-9-2010

EDIT: Actually the 5th extensions of the Game trademark and of the Manuals trademark (which according to the Trademark Office is the last one) expire before the 36 months deadline for the Use in Commerce, which would translate into the dates mentioned above.

:wacko: this is complicated !!!!
Since it is almost midnight here can anybody check if I'm thinking in the right direction?

[naomi]

If you go back in there and add on 36 months to the dates that the Notice of Allowance's were issued, you'll get the true expiration dates, the closest of which being July 31st.

But the game trademark is still a couple days away from the manuals trademark correct?

Making the expiry dates:

Game: 14-8-2010
Manuals: 31-7-2010
Merchandising: 11-9-2010

Thank you.

[Shirley BEltran]

But the game trademark is still a couple days away from the manuals trademark correct?

I already provided all those dates a few posts ago. I'm not sure what to think now, so until something else comes along I'm content to just wait and see.

[-__^]

I already provided all those dates a few posts ago. I'm not sure what to think now, so until something else comes along I'm content to just wait and see.

Oh, it says "must be released by 8/14/10", instead of saying "must be used in commerce". That changes things.

[Charlotte Lloyd-Jones]

I already provided all those dates a few posts ago. I'm not sure what to think now, so until something else comes along I'm content to just wait and see.

Wait, does it actually say "released" instead of "used in commerce?"

[Genevieve]

Wait, does it actually say "released" instead of "used in commerce?"

I want to know for sure as well.

[Heather M]

Oh, it says "must be released by 8/14/10", instead of saying "must be used in commerce". That changes things.

What I found out about the use in commerce bit is that they can't just simply show a box with a game in it. They need to prove that it is actually in the "normal" trade process, so ready for us to buy:

Definition: For the purpose of obtaining federal registration, "commerce" means all commerce that the U.S. Congress may lawfully regulate; for example, interstate commerce or commerce between the U.S. and another country. "Use in commerce" must be a bona fide use of the mark in the ordinary course of trade, and not use simply made to reserve rights in the mark. Generally, acceptable use is as follows:

* For goods: the mark must appear on the goods, the container for the goods, or displays associated with the goods, and the goods must be sold or transported in commerce.

I don't think they can wiggle their way out of that.
Also: please check the edit I did in my previous post. I'm not too sure about the timeline anymore.

For now: I'm going to bed. :snoring:

[Setal Vara]

Also: please check the edit I did in my previous post. I'm not too sure about the timeline anymore.

The correct dates are 36 months after the Notice of Allowance was issued. :shrug:

[Yvonne Gruening]

Wait, does it actually say "released" instead of "used in commerce?"

I want to know for sure as well.

Yeah...that's right. If (and that's a BIG if) "use in commerce" requires a release since it is the pattern of all their previous games' trademarks, then it seems reasonable to conclude that unless they're abandoning "Skyrim" then they have to release it before 8-14-2010. Antibody, your argument on why they'd bother renewing something they don't plan to use is compelling and leaves me with hope. But I obviously either don't have all the facts regarding trademark or we may have some turbulence in the speculative air coming.


EDIT: The 8-14-2010 date refers specifically to the game's trademark (not the other trademarks)

[sophie]

The correct dates are 36 months after the Notice of Allowance was issued. :shrug:

Yes, but that does exceed the maximum amount of extension-time they provide...
At least for 2 of the trademarks.
That's why I said I'm not sure anymore.

[Tarka]

Yeah...that's right. If (and that's a BIG if) "use in commerce" requires a release since it is the pattern of all their previous games' trademarks, then it seems reasonable to conclude that unless they're abandoning "Skyrim" then they have to release it before 8-14-2010. Antibody, your argument on why they'd bother renewing something they don't plan to use is compelling and leaves me with hope. But I obviously either don't have all the facts regarding trademark or we may have some turbulence in the speculative air coming.


EDIT: The 8-14-2010 date refers specifically to the game's trademark (not the other trademarks)

Haahaa... not that I am hoping for this, but let's just say "Skyrim" is an Elder Scrolls themed FPS not TESV, and they announce and release for trial (commerce) at QuakeCon (8-12-2010) to build FPS fans for it... talk about wild speculation

Just a passing thought really- so no need to convince me I am wrong on this

[michael flanigan]

I think TES:V will not be announced until E3 next year, and that Skyrim is just boring snow and ice and mountains, and that Nords are hairy and cultureless. I wants Summerset Isles only.

Skyrim is not all boring snow and ice. There are some beautiful, colorful spots in skyrim. Was all Morrowind dunmer and ash?

[Cheryl Rice]

Just a thought...

If they were to use the name "Skyrim" in an announcement that included a trailer on their website (which, by definition, is a form of commerce that is lawfully regulated by commerce), or in any sort of public domain which is paid for (TV, magazines, etc.), then they would be within the legal definition of "used in commerce" and could be granted a statement of use. This would mean they don't have to release the game any time soon, but they would have to announce it by 8/14/2010. Thus, we can expect an announcement (if Skyrim is going to be used) before then, but the game does not have to be released.

EDIT: I do believe, however, that they would have to announce before then, as the game manual and merchandise trademarks will run out, and I can't see any way of using them in commerce without an actual product.

[sharon]

Skyrim is not all boring snow and ice. There are some beautiful, colorful spots in skyrim. Was all Morrowind dunmer and ash?

hmmm... there must be since there is beer, there must be hops, and hops are green.

[Milagros Osorio]

Oh, it says "must be released by 8/14/10", instead of saying "must be used in commerce". That changes things.

I think this is one of the quotes that got these 30 threads around the spool.

"At the moment we've got Fallout 3 for this year and potentially there's a new Elder Scrolls title in 2010," said Oughton.

So I am thinking that this was the plan all along. Can someone check if MW and OB, even FO3 for that matter, came out within the 36 month trademark extension period.

And really what we will find out is whether Beth has had enough time to perfect ESV to release the game by 8/14, or if that awesomeness is still to come.

[Louise Andrew]

I think this is one of the quotes that got these 30 threads around the spool.

So I am thinking that this was the plan all along. Can someone check if MW and OB, even FO3 for that matter, came out within the 36 month trademark extension period.

And really what we will find out is whether Beth has had enough time to perfect ESV to release the game by 8/14, or if that awesomeness is still to come.

TESIII: Morrowind
12/10/1998 – Redguard Release (TESIII: Morrowind Development Begins)
9/22/1999 – TESIII: Morrowind Trademark Application Date
5/12/2000 – TESIII: Morrowind Announced for PC Release in late 2001
5/5/2001 – TESIII: Morrowind Announced for Xbox Release date
5/17/2001 – TESIII: Morrowind shown at E3
5/1/2002 – TESIII: Morrowind Released on PC
6/7/2002 – TESIII: Morrowind Released on Xbox

TESIV: Oblivion
5/1/2002 - Actual development begins on TESIV: Oblivion
10/6/2004 – Oblivion Trademark Application Date
10/24/2004 TESIV: Oblivion In Development announcement
5/18/2005 E3 2005, trailer with game play footage (Microsoft)
3/20/2006 TESIV: Oblivion Release Date

Fallout 3
7/12/2004 - Actual development begins on Fallout 3 & Under Development ANNOUNCED
2/1/2005 – Fallout 3 Trademark Application Date
5/2/2007 - Game concept art and music shown (NO actual game footage)
6/5/2007 - First Teaser Trailer of ACTUAL GAME
7/11/2007 - E3 Private Showing for Fallout 3
3/21/2008 - Todd Howard details Fallout 3 to OXM
7/15/2008 - E3 Microsoft shows Fallout 3
10/28/2008 - Fallout 3 RELEASED