Elaboration?

Seconded. I want to see how my opinions stack. I can admit, much as I like the book I definitely would have phrased a lot of stuff a bit less ornately, but the lore and story itself are quite good, in my opinion.

For one, Qijne's invisible weapon seemed a bit ridiculous -- not only is it invisible, but it can extend at the user's wish. When I first came upon this part, when and I was caught off guard.

Then, there was the planes of Oblivion; I mean, really? Not only does Sul know how to open a portal to Oblivion but he knows how to traverse each plane, sure he was trapped in Oblivion and tortured, but that suddenly makes him an expert on inter-dimensional travel? And the rather noble sacrifice of the Khajiit to hold off Hircine... are you kidding? The influence of the daedra alone was enough to provoke fear in people, (and I can only imagine people's opinions after the oblivion crisis) so actually staying behind in a plane of Oblivion, more specifically the Lord of the Hunt, would require either an extraordinary level of courage or an extraordinary level of stupidity. And the race in question... Khajiit? Were it a group of Nord who decided to stay behind, or perhaps someone who does not worship Hircine in their respective pantheon, it might feel a little better. Elsweyr seceded from the Empire, why would they want want to get involved with the Prince? But, ok, I'll take a fair ground and accept that they were the "Noble Savage"-type characters. If they were to sacrifice themselves outside of oblivion, sure, it could work... but Oblivion is the last place you'd want to die. I mean, look at Mehrunes Dagon's plane; hanging bodies, occassionally on fire? No thanks.

The of course there's the new lore about the Argonians. They weren't always my favorite race, but I felt like their individuality was lost with this book. I knew the Hist was important to the culture of the species, but the book made them out to be these mind-slaves to the Hist. I was hoping to read something a little more complex in the relationship to the Hist trees, but instead it seemed the book took the typical fantasy short-cut and made the Tree's the all-knowing overlords to the lizard-folk.

The dissolution of the Mages Guild wasn't necessarily a bad thing, but it was still a low-blow. I mean, the Mages Guild was seperated all along Tamriel (each region having an Archmage, and so on); it svcks that all that was lost and replaced with the College of Whispers and Synod... wat? College of Whispers?

I'm going to hope that things turn out better in the next book, but at this point I'm really not holding onto hope. I know that the lore belongs to Bethesda, and they can make dragons reappear and become magical friendly beings who the people of Cyrodiil can ride as personal mounts (That's a reference to a mod), but I feel like this just went all wrong.

I don't know if the Khajiit really considered all the repercussions of their actions, or even knew about them. They were just a tribe wandering the desert, I doubt they had any idea what would happen to them if they died in a plane of Oblivion. Though I will admit it seemed rather strange that Khajiit, of all things, would sacrifice themselves for a non-Khajiit, but I guess the guy being a prince who saved their families had something to do with it. :shrug:

Qijne's weapon: it was strange, yes, but so was she. And it doesn't so much extend at the user's wish but when she is super-pissed.

Khajiit: Well, why not? Yes, it may seem odd at first glance, but they seemed to be at least something of a warrior tribe, therefore being part of a Hunt of Hircine would be quite something. As for involving themselves with the prince, he is a powerful person. If they helped him in Oblivion and survived, they would be rewarded. If they helped him, they died, but he lived, then their children and tribe would likely be famous and could use the story as a threat to other tribes without connections. Khajiit are good at seeing where the wind is blowing, and they seemed to think the Empire of Men was back on the upswing.

Argonians: I think I would agree, but I feel like what we saw in the book was atypical, and since the book is in limited 3rd person instead of omnicient, we also only got Glim's view, and he's a Leukiul. The only people at this periiod who really know the Hist (or maybe just a rogue Hist?) are the An-Xileel, and they aren't the nicest people, it seems.

As for the Mages Guild, Imperial Guild without an Empire means no more guild. Pretty simple. I agree that the College of Whispers may not be the most sensible name for a magic organization, but maybe it has to do with Thu'ums?

I respect your opinion, I just disagree with it.

It's one thing to be strange... it's another thing to have a potentially over-powered weapon with no explanation behind it. We'll have to wait till the second book to -hopefully- get something out of it.



Considdering the history of the Khajiit and their atypical personality, finding a self-sacrificing Khajiit is like finding an Ash zombie in Vvardenfell post-Infernal. Not to mention, I'd suggest reading more into the "Hunt of Hircine"; it's not something that mortals want to be apart of, regardless of their origins; Daedra are feared by all. I can see how they would appreciate being rewarded if they lived, but let's be realistic -- their tribe would never recieve any recognition and they would be forgotten easily (perhaps glamorized in Bard's Tales, but nothing more).



You're going to have to explain what you mean by atypical. And all Argonian know the Hist; they've been licking in for generations. The An-Xileel were a political party formed after the crisis. This actually brings me to question something else; political parties? I don't remember too much, but I thought that the Black Marsh was ruled by a King or Emperor (or something to that extent) what was the point of forming a single-party?



The guild wasn't run by the Empire; it had restrictions, yes, but did not require the Empire to survive. It just... dissolved for no reason.

I don't see it as over-powered, being a person has to have the intent to cause harm or murder. Basically, that means it's a development guage for Annaig: how close is she to face-heel-turning?



They never did want to be a part of it, they just figured if that was what fate threw at them, then they would meet it head on like a group of crazy, bad-assed cat folk. And I think you're underestimating Attrebus, I don't think, this being his first real adventure, he would forget them. so if he becomes emperor, he likely would try to do something about the Elsweyr situation.



I mean that it's mentioned that all non-An-Xileel Argonians seem to feel "cut off" from the tree somehow, and that is remarked outright as odd and unsettling, because that isn't what normally happens. As for the party, I always figured (mostly based on the Argonian Account) that they had a tribe-like structure, and this was their answer to Dagon. They just decided to eliminate westernized Argonians while they were at it, to totally purge the Imperial "taint" from Black Marsh.




having the Empire fall on it's own, sure that wouldn't mean it would necessarily fall. Having the Empire fall shortly after losing most of your membership in a shadow war with a rival faction, that might cause problems. It was on it's last legs in Oblivion anyways.

Even if it is over-powered, I don't see how that's a bad thing. The user has to want to kill someone in order to use it, and I mean, a weapon can't be too good at killing people.

The simplest and most maddeningly complex way to go to Oblivion was simply to cease to be here, and begin to be there.
-Seif-ij Hidja, The Doors of Oblivion

The Clever Men say the realms of [the oblivion] are many, though some [limit] this number to sixteen. And there is not one that can count the endless avenues that run from one realm to another, for they change, and often, for they are as capricious in their natures as the demons that run through or rule them.
-The Aldudagga

Further, he wasn't just trapped and tortured. He spent years finding his own way out, discovering the Princes' realms' secrets and inner workings. Is it so inconceivable that he discovered a trail?


Minus the Imperial Charter that cemented their virtual monopoly on magical education and lots of funding from the Elder Council.

There are more fathomable ways of showing her turn.



You underestimate the influence of the Daedra on mortals. Attrebus might be thankful, yes, but Elsweyr seceded from the Empire; politics overpower personal opinion.



The Mages Guild looked pretty well off in Oblivion. It lost a few members due to the outlawing of Necromancy, sure, but look at Morrowind; Vvardenfell had a strict view against Necromancy, and it all worked out fine.



You know what? I challenge the fact he found a trail. Each realm of oblivion is not so far different from Dante's visioning of the Nine Circles of Hell; once you are trapped, your punishment is eternal. Take the realm of Madness; those who lived in the world of Sheogorath never found a way out because of their madness. Or Nocturnal's realm? An eternal darkness, where no light may enter. Just to enter Mankor Camoran's Paradise, a side-dimension of the Deadlands (and not too far different from any other realm of oblivion) Martin Septim required a list of very rare artifacts. It's concievable he might have been able to get the proper materials to get out, but finding what was needed outside of Oblivion is preposterous.



Who else was going to teach magick? This is common sense; who would you trust with your education? A wandering hermit or random mage? or a mage who studied in the Arcane University, and who had the correct matierials at their disposal? Imposing fines or guild dues, similar to those found in Morrowind, can create a steady fund for the guild to draw upon.

I guess this all boils down to difference of opinion. (Where the hell is the shrugging emotiocon?)

Assuming they've been damned. Sul's soul didn't belong to any prince.

Then should Cyrus the Restless have been permanently trapped in the realm of Clavicus Vile in the Second Era? Should his sister's soul have remained Vile's play-thing? Was it poor form for them to outwit Vile and escape?
Regarding those in the Shivering Isles, if we look at all the inhabitants of the isles, label them incapable of leaving due to Sheogorath's influence, and then declare anyone who enters the isles stuck in the isles, it's a skewed result. If there were hypothetically anyone who had enough willpower to resist Sheogorath and leave, there would be no evidence of their leaving either way and we would get the false impression that no one had the power to leave.


Camoran's paradise could be called a somewhat special situation, considering Paradise exists primarily within Camoran and the Mysterium Xarxes. Outcrop of the Deadlands though it may be, it operates on different rules.
Plus, Septim is arguably a noob when it comes to planar travel and portals. Divayth Fyr and Morian Zenas are both examples of people who can simply "cease to be here and begin to be there." The liminal barriers are by no means as strong and impenetrable as they were made out to be.


Who else would teach? Where would I go to get my education if the Mages Guild simply wasn't there? Well, if I were in Morrowind, I would likely go to the Telvanni, or perhaps if the Telvanni were my rivals, my own house would arrange for my education via their own magical training. If I lived in High Rock, each city would have its own collection of skilled practitioners. If I lived in Summurset, then I would try to find my way to Artaeum, or perhaps I would become the apprentice of a noble. As for the other provinces, magical organizations would slowly congeal and form just as the Mages Guild itself did.

Fines and guild dues are well enough, but they're not going to fund the organization as a whole. Eventually, the cost will become prohibitive, dwindling the membership, creating even more prohibitive costs and starting a vicious cycle. And the Mages Guild was truly stagnant and noncompetitive, thanks to the its monopoly established via the Empire. Remember those MG quests in Morrowind where trainers were shut down because they were operating without the guild's blessing? Remember how much the Guild and the Telvanni hated one another due to the Telvanni's exemption to the Imperial monopoly rules? The guild had a free ride for such a long time in terms of service rules, they likely wouldn't know what to do with themselves if the Empire were to dissolve and their government advantages disintegrated. I predict that as a big factor regarding why the Mages Guild collapsed. Other organizations form, undercutting prices, boasting less stringent requirements, etc, etc. If you're rooted in complacency, then it's insanely difficult to keep up.

Am I the only one who really enjoyed the book? :cold:

Naw, I really liked it too.

I liked it

Not to mention there are now TWO official organizations recognized by the newly forming Cyrodiilic empire. Titus is a shrewd man, and probably saw the competition between the two would benefit them in progressing magic for the empire, instead of having ONE organization that kept its doors and knowledge closed off for everyone, unless the Emperor said "pretty please" well enough and lots of other strings attached to the deal that'd benefit the guild's monopoly of magic.

The MG was a corrupt, complacent, stagnating organization that was becoming more of a bureaucracy than a school. Remember, its founder left the guild because he found that it had abandoned his original intent and became a mass of politics and elitism, which he so despised. Remember, it was originally made so that anyone who could pay can learn the ways of magic, without the whole elitism and political issue. Hell, I find they were a lot of really rotten eggs in that basket, that I'd consider them lawful-neutral and lawful evil at heart in TES:III and IV. They only appeared to be benevolent because they put such a big sweet smile into every word and action. I could totally see them burning priests and healers just because they weren't part of the guild, and pour honey into each deceptive word they use to justify their actions.

Bolded: there was a Morrowind quest where a freelancing healer was marked for death. They may have been official, but not good. And you are also right in general, both about it being beneficial to the Empire to have two magic organizations, and your assessment of the Guild.

Does anyone have any idea when book two is coming out?

No, and I'm quite curious as to that myself.

I enjoyed the book. Just wish it were longer. Also, assuming here that there is a TES V, I'm wondering if it will be set in the same time as the books with all the changes that have occured.

Wow I had no clue such thing had been released, I will have to buy it as soon as I can!

I enjoyed this book's loyal and true devotion to established rules and aspects of the Elder Scrolls universe, I enjoy its architecture of the Tamrielic political state 40 years post-Oblivion crisis, as well as a look into Khajiiti customs and some very interesting characters. I'm sure I sound as but an echo in the community when I say I was disappointed with the focus on the magic floating alien rock from Oblivion and our chipper young heroine's adventures cooking food. I savored the exploits of Sul, Attrebus, and Colin all the same, and wish that the story could have ventured--and will venture in the future-- to a more... familiar story arc that could get us more well-acquainted with an Elder Scrolls world less bound by game mechanics, but there's always the sequel.

I also decidedly like the Tamriel and "familliar Oblivion" for lack of a better word parts than the Umbriel parts. Tamriel is the world I absolutely love exploring and nerding out over. But the parts on Umbriel do have merits, not least of which being Vuhon's mini-Dreamsleeve.

There were some good moments in the novel. One of my favorites was when Vuhon talked to the spirit of his deceased wife.