You can't just enslave people and then let them go and expect them to svck it up and play nice. Also, don't be a [censored].

"Hey guess what, after years of beating you to a pulp, locking you in a dark cell, made you do hard work and treating you like a worthless piece of dirt I'll set you free... aint i generous?"

Plus, even IF slavery was outlawed you really think everyone followed that or didn't show biased hatred towards the argonians for now reason at all? And think of this, what if Helseth was assasinated or killed any other way and the next guy said "slaves for all" again?

EDIT: Oh yea and the slavery thing, don't just think it happend for a few years, it happend for MILLENIAS. You really think that's all forgotten and forgiven in 40 years?

He wasn't being a censored, he had a point. The Dres had trafficked with Argonian tribes for new slaves. Not to mention, the purging directed at those Argonians, who had been tainted by outlanders, by An-Xileel. The Dunmer aren't so evil anymore.


Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Dunmer learned to love and didn't retailate against the Argonian extremists, but instead allowed these radical elements to run their course and die out? Eventually, they would come back to their promised land, a renewed people, changed again and peaceful. That would be awesome, much better than the usual plot-driving bickering you find in other fantasies, including this one.

Yeah I've said all of this. That topic post was long ago and I can't dig it up anymore. Naysayers kept quoting real world events in the 1800s that the Argonians would settle down as tax farmers for their old masters and integrate into mainstream Morrowind society. When I pointed out the fact that the betmer were not taken overseas from a distant continent. Morrowind and Argonia shared a freaking border. It would not be hard for freed Argonians to link up with the kinfolk in Northern Argonia and stage an insurrection. I think Helseth treated the issue of slavery way too lightly and through his reckless and short-sighted aims to cripple the Great Houses by attacking the slavery institution, he cut himself off at the knees with an empowered Argonian population turning against the Dunmer after landfall.

Again we don't know what happened to Helseth or Barenziah.

Exactly. I don't even know if they had any kind of deal with the Argonians afterwards because, honestly, just saying "You're free now" actually sounds more like a insult, like i said above "after countless generations of slavery we set you free and expect you to thank us for it".
They should have worked up deals and treaties at least to calm the waves. I don't know IF they worked out any but it sounds like they just said "end of slavery, done".

With this it was no wonder that a extremist group rose to power, the simply had a tone of supporters in no time.

I don't know if the book specifies whether the invasion of Morrowind was the Hist's idea or if it was something the An-Xileel did on their own. If it was the Hist, then Helseth probably did the best thing for the Dunmer by letting the Argonians out of there. Having a bunch of people right next to you suddenly rise up under the command of a single mind and start attacking while your people are disorganized and in chaos from the moon and volcano would not be very good for the survival of many Dunmer. An invading army would be easier to flee from.

Hist's idea, apparently, but they spoke first to the An-Xileel.

Well, my plan to take the novel as slowly as possible to prolong my reading experience certainly evaporated quickly - by day 3, I succumbed completely to temptation and had to read it all at once. And I must admit, I like what I am reading. Dreamsleeve-echoes, Baar Dau's impetus, Clavicus's desires that unwittingly brought him to harm, characters that started out looking cliche but quickly became anything but, Void-pockets in Mundus, mentions of Towers and Stones, Red Years, and countless more.

Keyes, thou hast won my favor. I agree with Syronj and Tropes: This novel is deserving of the Elder Scrolls label it bears.

Forgive me for dragging up issues from the last thread, but I just got the chance to read them, and I must comment on them:

1) Solstheim vs Soulstheim?
This new spelling is obviously not a typo; it happens far too often for it to be one. And for those who think it was just arbitrarily changed without good reason, or that it was slightly altered to sound cooler, or what have you... *cough* SOUL-stheim. In a novel where the Dreamsleeve itself is given its very own echo, its very own gradient, where souls are being harvested left and right, where people dine on souls, where the blade that was practically designed with souls in mind plays a central plot piece... Surely the adding of a "u" to make Soulstheim against that backdrop is just an arbitrary change without actual plot or world significance. Nope, nothing to see there, folks. /Sarcasm/ OK, we may not have any direct "why's" as of yet regarding the renaming, but since the island is now the de facto refuge home for the remaining Dunmer and is now supposedly the home of the Umbra sword, its only logical that the renaming is significant and noteworthy, and that it will likely tie into the unfolding plot of the second novel.

2) WTF?! Morrowind is [censored] destroyed?! That's [censored] bull-[censored]!!!
Yep, Morrowind is destroyed. And though I love Morrowind more than any place in Tamriel, it's time to let it go. We were forewarned (check link 2 in my sig) LONG ago, this world is not one that is frozen in time, and things change. It's already been argued as to how the MQ of Morrowind itself helped this chain of events come to fruition, and nothing was realistically going to stop it. This is the final tragic chapter in a tale that spans back to the Tribunal stealing the power of a God's Heart and thinking they were the new masters of the universe. And while one now hypothetically is (Vehk and his Muatra), their actions and boasts reaped a huge cost, even if it was delayed for several hundred years by some hardcoe chronomancy.

3) This novel takes lore and throws it into a blender.
Like hell. I challenge anyone to point out one single inaccuracy in this whole 288-page work. To those things that may seem or feel like inaccuracies, the foundational groundwork for those occurrences was laid out long before the occurrences themselves. Every time someone comes into the Ideas and Suggestions thread, suggesting something like modern technology or something held to be incompatible or implausible under lore, they always get pissed at lore and we always tell them that lore is a lot more flexible, in ways they don't realize. Perhaps some die-hard fans around here could do with a reminder of that, as well.
Even the nature of the city itself, it's "floating city in the sky" deal that so many people loved to deride before the novel's release... Anyone here play Redguard? When Cyrus pays a visit to the realm of Clavicus Vile, he discovers that Vile's realm is a floating chunk of conical-shaped land. Since the city is popped off from Vile's realm, its appearance and flight makes perfect sense.

4) The Trial of Vivec is now non-canon.
Is it? I saw nothing to refute the plausibility of the trial being canon. Anyone care to elaborate one way or another?

4) Vivec was carried away. Its my understanding that it was mentioned in the book, but you say the trial is plausible, so I'll take your word for granted.

I think defending/railing against this book has fallen from its emediacy as an issue, but thanks for the list anyway.

Ach, no, you're right. I remember that now. It might be argued that the events of Hogithum Hall were hushed up by those present, and the rumor of Vehk's being taken away was propagated to cover it up, but that seems more fitting in my own personal fanon than actually a plausible outcome.


True, but I missed out on all the fun the first time around.

Or maybe the Battlespire, except a floating conical-shaped piece of Oblivion in Mundus instead of a http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:BS-The_Battlespire1.jpg piece of Mundus in Oblivion. Umbriel looks a bit more inviting than the Battlespire does there. Deceivingly so, I guess, sorta like Vile's realm.

Well as far as i got it Umbriel is a floating city while the battlespire pretty much is a flying boot camp... 3 guesses of them which would likely be more plesant

But that is pretty ironic, Battlespire being a floating conical-island-pocket of Mundus hovering in Oblivion, and Umbriel being a floating conical-island-pocket of Oblivion hovering in Mundus. Hadn't thought of that, to be honest, but a good contrast nonetheless.

perhaps in the creation of the battlespire, The rock that later became umbriel was sent into the sea east of Argonia. When Umbra escaped, he was drawn to this peice of oblivion, and then made it into his own mini-realm.

Just to make one thing clear: Soulstheim is a typo. Despite it being hard to believe that it got past us due to how often it appears... imagine all the things that didn't get past us that you'll never have to worry about.

:ahhh:

And to think, I was getting accustomed to the new name. Thanks for the clarification Maturin!

Well, sheesh, way to turn my whole theory up on its head.

Yea, i mean Oblivion managed it past quality controll so... ok ok bad joke
But, even if it's rather minor, kinda glad it was just a typo and not a actual change.

First off, lots of very well said points.

Second, OMFG you spelled my name right!


Well, at least it was an insignificant spelling error that doesn't even effect the pronounciation. Although I did like the new name.

affect.

:hehe:

I for one hated the new name, and it clearly did change the pronunciation, from sol-stheim to soul-stheim.

Actually, it didn't. The NPCs in BM pronounced it like soul-stheim.

Was he going to spell it Murruwind instead of Morrowind?

In scandinavian/norse tongue(which it seems the name quite clearly is based on) one would actually say 'solsth-heim', heim means home in our tongue,and if the name was norse then 'Solsth' would be a name, most likely of a man. The 'o' is pronouced sort of like 'oo' in 'pool', just shorter.

Forgot to mention that my own spelling is horrible.

But in any case, there are no lore contradictions, and that's what's important here. I dare anyone to say they've never misspelled something very important.

As long as it's not Morrowindl. :shifty:


The Summerset Isles have been Summurset and Sumerset on the Arena and Daggerfall race selection map, by the way.