Oh, well, I'm aware of that, but you didn't mention anything about NPC/mob leveling, so I assumed you mean the mechanics of actually leveling up.
Which is essentially the same.
Morrowinds system was great, I liked having areas I couldn't "go to" yet, because the enemies were too high level. Made it more epic and dangerous feeling.

Morrowind's system also made me feel like i was actually getting stronger (progression), something that Oblivion's lacked.

Completely agree.

While I agree with this discussion on level progression, it should go to the suggestions thing.

So... I still think they will either announce or show stuff at E3.

I guess everyone gets bored sometime... But yeah, seriously, you might want to get that DLC site working again, you're losing sales.

I'm really hoping they announce it at least at E3. Would be so hyped.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree on this point. This generation's consoles are really starting to show their age. There may be a little bit more performance they can squeeze out of them, but not much. We are already seeing the console version of some games being scaled down form the PC version. In fact, a midrange PC can run circles around the current consoles. It's to the point where there aren't a lot of advantages to buying a high-end gaming PC. We don't need one b/c most developers are catering to consoles due to piracy issues, IMO. So, PC hardware really isn't being pushed all that hard these days. Many developers don't want to spend the resources to create a game natively on all platforms, so they make a game that the consoles can handle, and the PC may get a slightly better version. But until a new console generation is released, we are only delaying the future of gaming. In fact, as far as video performance goes, we are currently at DX11.__ and many of these features aren't even being implemented. The tech used for this generation's consoles may have been somewhat impressive 5 years ago, but not anymore. If we may not be getting new consoles until 2015, how sad will those consoles look then? What will PC's be capable of 5 years from now? The interesting thing is that the vido card that is implemented in the PS3 is almost identical to the card my PC was using almost 5 years ago.

Now, I will say, that it is not necessary for a console to have the same raw power that a PC has. They are optimized to run games specifically for their platform and therefore do not have all the bloat that a PC has. The PC will always have other systems runing in the background in order to operate, and even if it didn't, it would require better hardware then a console b/c PC games have to be developed with many systems in mind. They don't have the advantage of being optimized as well as a console game.

That being said, they are still way behind. It's quite obvious too. The 360 struggles to keep Oblivion at 30fps. I can run Oblivion on my PC and typically I'm getting between 60-150fps...and that's a modded Oblivion that's harder to run then vanilla 360 is. I know this sounds like a silly example, but Oblivion was practically a release title and my current PC isn't even close to being highend.

Now I know there are many variables that effect how a game will perform on any given title. In some cases, the devs will just need to get creative to tweak out a little more performance, but there is a limit to how far the can go with this.

We need to all realize that these consoles have always been marketed as being much more powerful then they really are. Besides, it's not good for business if they announce a new console even if there is one in the works. Their sales numbers always go down once that happens, as everyone gets ready for the new generation coming out. Let's face it, MS and Sony claiming these consoles have a realistic 10-year life cycle is crap. What this is really about is money, not technology. MS and Sony spent way too much bringing these consoles to market, so they have to keep it going as long as possible to make back their R&D losses. Once they announce a new console, it's back to square one for them, and the cycle continues.

Now obviously, we don't know what's being said behind closed doors and the devs have access to this info well ahead of time, but how giddy would Todd Howard be tonight if he found out a new Xbox were coming soon? He'd be living on cloud 9 for quite a while, I'm sure, knowing he wont be limited by aging tech.

******Note: this was not intended to be a console bashing thread, so I hope it isn't taken that way. I own 3 consoles and enjoy them very much, but I felt this point needed to be made.******

I'll never stop wanting TES V I've wanted it ever since I completed Oblivion for the first time

The power of the current generation of consoles in comparison to high end PCs isn't really a factor here. The factor is money. As of December 2009, Sony has never been able to make a profit off of the PS3. When you buy a PS3, Sony loses $40. Google it. Microsoft has said dozens of times now that the Xbox will last until 2015, and they believe Natal will help them reach that goal. It costs a lot of money to come up with a new console, when in actuality the current consoles are just fine the way they are now. The current consoles still haven't reached their peak yet, despite some people thinking they have. Honestly, it would be stupid for Microsoft and especially Sony to come out with new consoles so early. I don't expect to see new consoles revealed until 2013 and 2014, and released in 2015, because any earlier would be too early.

First of all, I was not even comparing these consoles to a high end PC. I compared them to a midrange system. There's nothing highend about my computer, but the consoles dont even come close to that kind of performance. How do you think they will compare in another 5 years? That's sad to even think about.




I know what you're saying. Money is the main issue. I briefly touched on it in my previous post. I agree that MS and Sony spent too much last time around and that's the reason for the longer life cycle. The good news is that it should be much better next time around with BR firmly in place. But what irritates me is when these execs from MS and Sony come out and try to imply that these consoles have plenty of power left to tap into. The fact that MS is trying to do something like Natal is a sign that their tech is getting old. While we're on that topic, let me just say that I think Natal is a joke. Another gimmick to try to help sell their console. In fact there is evidence that Natal could slow games down, performance wise. The 360 most likely will have to use additional resources with Natal so it's possible that graphics may have to be compromised for more interactivity and gameplay. So, it may be that we won't see new consoles for a while. Just don't expect more then very slight graphical improvements, if any, on consoles intil after 2015. That's a long time my friend.
I guess the PC will be our only option for advancing gaming further for a while, and I don't believe many developers are going to invest that kind cash for one platform, unless the industry contimues to grow.

Consider that Crysis 2 (CryEngine 3) and Rage (Idtech5) are both going to be released for the consoles. Thats pretty impressive/demanding graphics if you've seen the demo's. I'd be quite happy with similar tech in TESV and I don't see us waiting for next gen consoles before combined PC/console release.

For someone with a so-called "mediocre" system, you sure have alot of computer specs in your signature (No, I don't know what any of them mean). I recently bought my mediocre system off the shelf at Best Buy for twice the price of my however-many-years-old-xbox360. Then, I bought the 20-dollar version of Oblivion for my new PC only to find that it barely runs at all.

Now that microsoft has set the price for Natal at 50 bucks, I am convinced it will be a LONG time for the next-gen console. They can't be making much money on that hardware and they will need time to reap the rewards of new games.

I think there is a strong chance ESV will use the new technology in some small way. Although, in a way that can easily be removed for PS3 and PC versions. Maybe Bethesda is delaying the announcement so that the new ES will be packaged with other announcements featuring Natal capabilities? Is it possible that Microsoft gave Bethesda a bunch of money to help develop the game if they were to feature Natal functionality? Perhaps part of that agreement was to hold off the announcement so as to coincide with a big Natal reveal before Holiday 2010? That would make the old quote about "possibly an elder scrolls title in 2010" true.

Do you think that Bethesda received development money from Microsoft as a reward for making Oblivion a launch game? Is it common in the industry for the console manufacturers to give monetary incentives to 3rd party publishers and studios?

Does anyone else die a little bit every time they log onto bethblog.com and don't see an announcement?

Whenever i look at the tes forum, i always see this thread as: "Official: We Will get TESV" at first eyeglance

I, for one, have finally resigned to wait. I check the forum just cause its fun to guess but honestly I don't expect an announcement til after 2nd book. No clue what Beth is doing (aside from promoting other companies games on their blog). I guess they want us to buy Dragon Age.

My comments were directed more towards the longevity of the consoles life and its ability to keep up with technology using old hardware. Most developers want their game to be released on mutiple patforms to increase their games earning potential. I do not doubt that they will do an admirable job bringing these games to the consoles. The console versions just wont have the same graphical quality. That doesn't mean they won't be fun to play. My point was that we are beginning to see a wider gap in performance between the PC and the consoles and this gap will only widen as time goes on.

I upgraded my computer about a year and a half ago and looked for parts that were good bang for buck components. So yeah, it wasn't that expensive to put together. It would be even cheaper if I did it today. When shopping for a pre-built computer you need to look at what the machine is designed to do. If your primary concern was to play games, then you need to make sure it has the right components needed for the task. The price isn't enough to tell you how the machine will perform. Different computers are designed to do different things. For example, you might have a mutimedia type PC that may be great for movies and surfing the net, but it doesn't have the proper type of video hardware so it struggles to keep up with demanding games. In this scenario, they probably skimped a little on video, and put there money into a bigger harddrive and probably threw a BR drive in their for HD movies, which of course isn't essential for games. If you have a budget, you can cut costs in areas that aren't essential to games and spend money where it matters most. More then likely, the machine you purchased was not marketed as a gaming machine and that's why it's having trouble keeping up. Do you have the specs on your machine? Let me know and I'll show you what you need to do to get Oblivion up and running. It would be a shame to have purchased the game and not be able to play it.

For those who aren't technically inclined, let me break it down to the main components for you... (no offense intended toward Arganoth, your system is better than what I was using until recently)

Is a dual core processor which uses an older architecture. The cooling system (if maintained) however allows it to perform rather well without losing performance due to excess heat.

Is the RAM of the system. If using XP, he has about 1.5gb free. If using Vista, he's at about 800mb free. The free memory is used by the game to control loading of processes. Unlike with the Xbox version, the PC version is prone to many memory leaks and abnormalities.

This is the videocard. It has 512 ram, but was one of the better performance cards back in 2008 based on the 4850 Series GPU.

Is probably the system drive. WD or Western Digital is a manufacturer who is known for having good reliability and high drive speeds. While I doubt that this is a raptor, it has enough speed to be of little concern as a potential system bottleneck.

In comparison to the Xbox 360 specs


Technically, while the Xbox 360 has a newer processor and is not bogged down by either a clumsy OS, or nearly as many background processes, and while the console version is extremely streamlined, even Arganoth's system outperforms it in terms of raw power. Arganoth's videocard is quite alot more capable than the one which is present in the 360, and he has far more RAM at his disposal for managing game data. But at the same time, Arganoth's system is fairly dated and although might have been extremely good at the time FO3 came out, is probably showing its age. Comparing his system to a $500 throwaway system from Best Buy, even the ones you can buy right now, is an insult. Any computer you get for that price will come with only low-grade hardware and will most certainly have almost completely crapped out within a year. These throwaway systems are not intended for gaming of any kind, and are more geared towards people who aren't going to attempt anything more demanding than browsing webpages (and even then they crap out rather quickly). Any remotely decent computer will cost you between $1000 and $1500 in the US. Depending on the age of his systems, Arganoth had easily spent more than that just for the computer (sans keyboard, mouse, monitor). And unlike both Xbox and that $500 system, his is still working after a year of use.

To suggest that a console would be able to play the same games as a $1000+ system is rediculous. The only way consoles get close is by streamlining the software to work with a specific set of hardware, and shaving off every bit of complexity and detail they can get away with for the sake of performance. With a computer version, this much tuning can still be done if your hardware is close to being able to manage the game, but it is less often needed since even minimum hardware setups for a decent computer exceed the raw power that consoles are capable of. At current, Xbox360 Elite is nearing its limits in terms of capability and we will likely see the next incarnation sometime in the next 6-8 months. The PS3 still has life in it, but companies don't yet know how to make full use of its capabilities (one or 2 more Square games should prove this well enough). However, a "decent" system will always outperform a console.

@ Arganoth
To preface this I am mostly ignorant of technology. I am pretty sure of the basics though: More RAM is better, bigger and faster hard drives are better, more complex Processors are better, and it svcks something fierce to upgrade a Mac.

On the wiki page for the 360 it looks like newer and newer renditions of the xbox elite upgrade the chip sets. Do you think little tweaks like this could effectively shorten the gap between PC and console performance? Or would the result be a gap that grows with slightly less speed?

In any case it is notable that Xbox has released 3 renditions of the Arcade, 2 of the pro, and 2 of the elite. And upgrading the motherboard 3 times.
And if TESV is announced along with a release of Natal, would the game be using Natal itself or just an upgraded version of the current 360 tech.
Just something to consider before we assume TES combat will be like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZguvZn-sG7Q.

The upgrades done to the 360 should show little to no performance difference. The design changes that were done was an effort to help combat the RROD. This is a heat issue. The newer designs help disipate heat better then the original design. It also helps the 360 operate more quietly.

Good info guys... I feel a little more educated. And yes, my Best-buy sign-and-fly machine is s-s-sss-starting to hic-hic-hiccup after only nine months or so. The decals on the side of my tower boast NVIDEA GeForce 6150 SE Graphics. I am definitely an XBOX guy. But all this is in the wrong thread... sorry to everyone.

Is anyone else going to jump on the Natal-TESV holiday realease bandwagon or am I lost in a dream (nightmare)? Does Microsoft pad the wallets of developers to work on Natal stuff? (I am a union worker, so I always suspect conspiracy and foul-play)

Vagrant is right for the most part. Although, I think that little X2 6400 is better then one would thing. There are actually 2 versions with the same name. Mine is the newer one build on the new AMD arch. so technically speaking, it's a newer processor then the 360's. But still, my system is a decent little midrange rig and not a whole lot more. However, I have no problem playing most current games on it. For example, I'm playing Dragon Age right now and it stays at around 60fps 90% of the time. I have all settings maxed while playing and the PC version of this game looks a bit better then either of the console versions.

A little background on this system. I purchased this computer about 5 years ago, and have made upgrades along the way so this machine has well been worth the money spent. My next computer I'll probably build after the TESV specs are released and I'll start over from scratch. This machine will then become my backup computer.

Ahh, thanks. Disregard my earlier post.

I seriously doubt it. Natal would probably need to be proven capable of living up to its promises before anything like that happens. And even then, it screws out PC owners and would be a rather bad path for gamesas to take.

Maybe you're too young to remember, but there have been many attempts at "your character moves like you do" kinda gimmick peripherals, and all of them have svcked horribly. Wii is about as close as anyone has gotten, and between the few dozen attachments you need to also buy to play games, is only considered as being close, and still fails when it comes to precise movements (the strap is for your protection and the person standing next to you). The little preview footage thingy just plain reeks of scripted actors and rigged situations. As far as I know nobody in the public has had a chance to demo the thing to say what it can actually do.

Natal is also being developed for PC, last time I checked

How would that work exactly? Kinda hard to go running in place and swinging a sword around while you're perched in an executive chair in front of a 17" monitor. Not everyone has their computer hooked up to their flatscreen and uses a wireless mouse and keyboard.

The wiki only describes its relationship to the Xbox, and seeing as how it shares some hardware function between the two, probably wouldn't be PC ready. As all the games and the Xbox live system that work with the device are Xbox only, I'm skeptical.