So, we all know that when Trinimac became Malacath, his followers became the Orcs. Pretty straightforward, really.

What I want to know is, did the same happen to Malacath's daedric servants, the Ogrim? Were they some other kind of daedra before Trinimac's transformation, or were they only spawned after Malacath was created?

Trinimac wasn't a Daedroth; Malacath is.

What I mean is Trinimac held no hold in Oblivion; this said, he had no Daedric spawn before Boethiah corrupted him.

In conjuction with that, Malacath's compatriots refuse to even recognize him as a Daedric Prince, ostracizing him, which is in fact, Malacath's Daedric sphere (the patronage of the spurned and the ostracized). The transformation is much more complex than you may believe.

I believe it was Trinimac's consumption, his transformation, and his spurn that led to his creation of his sphere, and from there, the creation of the Ogrim.

Ah, I felt as much. So, Aedra can't have any kind of immortal servant race?

Actually, no. The only reason the Daedra have servants is because of their spheres. Because their spheres are made of and unto themselves (effectively meaning that they are thier spheres), they have complete control over it, and anything they create in it.

The Aedra, while they may be patrons of a certain aspect, do not have thier own spheres. The Aedra instead created the Mundus, which required them to sacrifice themselves, or parts of themselves. The Daedra didn't like the idea that they were going to sacrifice themselves to create a realm they had no control over. Hence, that is why Aedra do not have immortal servants.

What about the Dremora? "Spirit of the Daedra" says they serve Mehrunes Dagon, but they apparently didn't always. They live in Dagon's realm, but it seems they weren't created by him.

Dremora are Daedra.

True. But Dagon didn't have control over their creation, since they clearly existed before he came to rule them. For all we know, they may have had another form, and it's unlikely they achieved their current "mini Dagon" appearance without divine intervention.

Well, that's my understanding.

While I remain true to my point, you do make a good point. However, I suspect that the Dremora are just another type of lesser Daedra, or rather spirits, without a realm of their own, much like the Ehlonfey were a type of Aedra who didn't belong to a specific category, such as the Nine Divines.

EDIT: To quote the UESP on Dremora:



EDIT AGAIN: To again quote the UESP on Daedra:

Sheogorath set up a wellspring to guide Golden Saints & Dark Seducers from the Waters of Oblivion.

Even more proof that these minions being spoken about are just lesser Daedra.

It seems to me that the Ogrim are the embodiment of the kind of servant that Malacath seems to favour: big, bulky, primitive and sometimes dim-witted boogiemen, or in a broader perspective all vaguely humanoid creatures with a semblance of culture, but not enough to be thought of as 'proper races'; in other words, outcasts. This description fits Ogrims, but also the ogres that he has the player save in Oblivion, goblins, and also the creatures who are slowly climbing out of the outcast category, the Orcs.

Purely a nitpick:

The UESP is not an authoritative source, you have to cite their sources.

And looks like I'll be editing out "Powerful Dremora are sometimes called "Daedra Lords." which simply isn't true and "The most powerful wear Daedric armor, the most powerful armor in existence. Lesser Dremoras appear to wear such armor, but only because they may freely choose their appearance."which was an explanation that got invalidated with Oblivion as it shows them to be using arms and armor of a lesser quality.



They're lesser Daedra alright and there has been some argument that the lesser Daedra once were part of a Daedra Lord. But when the Lord failed they were cast adrift. So in essence the collective of lesser Daedra would form a planet of it's own that would then Orbit the Daedra Lord they pledged themselves too.

I'd have to dig the old thread up for the exact arguments.

I thought Daedric princes could not create only change :huh:.
I also heard that Daedra choose which Daedric Prince they follow and are not in complete control of the prince they are currently under.

Not all Daedra have the (or are believed to have the) intelligence/sentience needed to make such choices.

Personally, I believe the lesser Daedra were "lesser" et'Ada at the time before Mundus was created, and followed the stronger Daedra when they refused to give something to the creation. Magnus have his Magna'Ge, the Aedra have the Ehlnofey/Aldmer depending on source. It would make sense that the strong/profilic Daedra would have attracted "followers" when they were et'Ada as well. Sense isn't always right, however.

Anyway, a question. Is it possible that the Dremora once were the "leaper demons" of the would be-Dagon? The obscure former leader of their would then have been the "Leaper Devil King", and when he was changed, they changed as well, like Trinimac and Orsimer.
It's a bit farfetched, but seems possible to me.

to me, it's definitely possible. I just wish we had a source for that.

I remember seeing in the concept art that Ogrim were labeled as "Clanfear daddies", which makes sense at least physically, seeing as they share similar skin, claws, etc. I wonder if this is at all significant.

Yes, well...still...first two lines apply.

Malac was Trinimac right? He got "eaten" then reborn, or "deficated" as Malacath... I was just told this, so I'm not 100% sure, but that's the story right? He was deficated out, as Malacath, thus the Orcs were born?

Essentially. Trinimac was consumed by Boethia. The Aldmer who continued to worship Trinimac were transformed into the Orsimer when he was transformed into Malacath. That's how the Orsimer came to be.