During the TB MQ, you clear out the goblins and the Dark Brotherhood.

Now, Mournhold - City of Light, City of Magic - is prime real estate, whether above ground or under ground. So, my idea is that after you finish the quests where you kill the DB leader and the Altmer goblin trainers, the goblins and DB stop spawning. A new quest opens up at the end of the MQ (or whenever) where you get to work with some Mournhold official (Helseth, his flunkies, whatever) to turn Old Mournhold back to its former glory. Well, sort of.

Beautification:
- lanterns as light sources
- planters with glowing fungi (luminous russula)
- benches, some fountains
- clutter (crates, baskets, etc)

Population:
- merchants turn old a few OM buildings and areas into stores.
- NPCs wandering the streets.
- Some street-side small-time merchants, similar to the vendors in the Foreign Quarter canton who have a little corner out in the open.
- an Inn/Tavern/pub
- guards

Access:
- new access points to OM from the overworld (Mournhold city proper) so that you don't have to crawl through those stupid sewers each time you want to visit.

This would turn dreary boring Old Mournhold into a useful area to hang out in.

Discuss!

EDIT: easy (?) implementation: OM is blocked off for a few weeks, and when it "opens" the cells are switcheroo'd with the populated ones. Like how you get the Skaal house in Bloodmoon.

Wow, this is a very interesting idea. Though I feel that some areas, such as the deeper levels of the Old Mournhold Sewers should be left unpopulated and inhabited by creatures. Mainly because they just don't seem suitable for resettlement anymore.

Oh, definitely. I was mainly thinking about the Old Mournhold areas occupied by the Dark Brotherhood, and a few areas the Goblins lurk in that aren't sewers. Let's see... ah-ha: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Battlefield, the ruins of the previous city of Mournhold that was destroyed by Mehrunes Dagon. There's an Armory, Residential quarters, and Teran Hall. Oh, and the Tears of Amun-Shae.

http://images.uesp.net//3/33/TR-maps-battlefield.jpg

I think this is a really brilliant idea with a lot of potential. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

Likewise... would you use the "Old Mournhold" architecture (of which I don't think a non-ruined set exists), the modern set, or something else?

Well, I could probably retexture some planters. I wasn't really concerned about having non-ruined architecture. Maybe clear up some of the ground debris... but, I thought it'd be kind of cool to keep the "ruins" aspect. It's a part of Mournhold's history. Maybe there could be mention of a restoration project? I dunno.

As for new architecture - yeah, I was thinking mainly of the wooden structures used on Vvardenfell and Sadrith Mora for open-air structures (market stalls, shelters, mass cargo shelving, rope bridges).

:unsure2:

EDIT: I could also cobble together new lanterns and stuff via retexturing with vanilla textures.

I love this idea. And yeah, my only concern was about a city that you could only get to by crawling through the runoff of the city above it, but it sounds like you've already thought of that

From what I understand Tamriel Rebuilt is using the Old Mournhold meshes to create buildings for some of their future maps. They may (I haven't looked) have created a few extra pieces and they're in the Tamriel Rebuilt ESM and BSA. If so, one could make this mod dependent on their TR_Data.esm file and re-use their resources.

Maybe someone more knowledgeable about TR than me could chip in...?

Would the TR team be unhappy if I just extracted the meshes and credited them? :unsure: I'd rather not have to muck around with dependencies if I can avoid it.

They would most definitely be unhappy if you use their work without their permission. Read through their license agreement (should be in the readme) and if it says you can, feel free. If not, I'd recommend asking one of their heads and asking permission.

The general rule of thumb is, if somebody made something, read through the license, THEN ask, and if you're still denied, you're out of luck. Using meshes/textures without permission is greatly frowned upon.

Your free to use them AS LONG as the mod is dependent on TR. Atleast that's what I understood.

Hey, ya know, old mornhold could be used as a sort of underworld base for shadier characters, like evil types and thieves. Maybe you get a choice of who to talk to, and one of them is, well, lax about what goes on down there and maybe even volunteers to cover it up should you make it worth his/her while. If you do choose them, it affects the city in old mornhold in different ways than if you had chosen an honest official.

Like for example, now the shops are more illegal and have different vendors, most of which will buy moon sugar and the like. The people roaming the streets mostly look grisly or sneaky. Lighting is a little different so it casts a more eerie glow, and has a few darkened alleys. The spell casters look more like necromancers, and there is a sizable thieves guild base.

Things that get sold at many of the stores are more menacing, and there are some honest looking shops that are fronts for crime. It has a lot of potential, like a fight club and other things that would make such a character feel at home in mornhold. Even the entrance could look a little different to make it seem as if there is an attempt to keep it hidden. There are many ideas that could be used for a place like that.

Indeed, welcome to mornhold's criminal underworld, capital of the black market in the area! Old mornhold would be a perfect base, as little is really known about it, and it has a good travel method for those who wish to remain unseen. Heck, you could even take a page from starfire's mod and have creature spawns for npcs so you see an ebb and flow of unsavory sorts.

Yea yes of course I know all that. I don't have TR downloaded, so I didn't know what it said in the readme. I'd have to download the mod and read it before I bothered to poke around looking for meshes.

I guess it is easy to update .esms via Wrye Mash - see, my main worry was any errors the game would throw up if TR was updated post the release of a mod using the meshes (and dependent on an older version of the .esm).

@Maholix: I guess I considered that... but I feel that the City of Light and City of Magic and the Her Hands would squash crime. =/

One idea I had was, for each potential shop location, the player is asked to interview potential merchants. You'd get you honest merchants, and then your shadier characters... Another idea I had was to have one space allocated to be a guild hall selected by the player. But, those seemed like rather complex ideas that would require a lot of scripting, so I wasn't sure how feasible they were.

As to the whole usage of TR resources thing. I've seen (at least ) two different ways (i) abot's Water Life has an addon mod dependent on TR which adds the TR aquatic creatures, and (ii) Piratelord's Creatures that includes the TR creatures in its ESP.

The readme:

[Edit: I've had a quick snout through the TR download and I don't think it matters as I couldn't see any additional OM statics in there. For anyone interested in this it'd be worth signing up at TR, downloading some of the available OM claims and seeing how those guys have created some interiors (and making a showcase to help out the team)]

Thanks for doing that, Dragon32. Well, then, the issue about using "restored" OM meshes is moot.

However, for the same reason old mornhold should not have existed in the fashion it does. I've always regarded it as a part of mornhold that is either resistant to such motions, or partly because the under city goes ignored, unimportant to the surface. Too many important things going on above, and old mornhold is more or less forgotten. Hard to map it out if the crooks get there first and set up safe guards against the sort of expansions they don't like. In theory it would not be hard to convince people they don't want to go down there, if you even had to.

And if one of the officials is corrupt how are they to know? He could say a great number of things to keep average people out and they'd be keen to believing him. Once the place is well established, it could even simply be the notion that there is no way to effectively "squash" it. After all, the player, who has pull and might even be feared is involved, as well as this official, and the crooks know the lay of things. They owe the player, for in theory he is important wither they like it or not. And should an officer of law go down there, it could be they can't catch them in action.. you know they are shady, but without proof, you can't drag them out of the place.

Even if you could prove it, the number of people would frighten the locals, might cause a high level revolt from under the city, and you don't know where all the exits are.. even if you did go all out, someone is bound to escape further down. Do you want to battle a hoard of goblins and who knows what else just cause a guy has some skooma on him? Nope not worth it.. so he gathers more crooks and it starts again. No, better to keep peace from above, where you have the home court advantage. And again, that's even if you knew what was going on, which you may not.

So for a number of reason it is, in theory, very possible.

I'd flesh that out a bit:
1) If the license states you may use it freely in your mod - go for it. It's always nice to give the modder a heads up, but it's OK to use.
2) If the license doesn't say anything, contact the modder for permission. If yes, it's OK to use. If no, delete it and move on.
3) If the license states you may NOT use it, ask anyway. Either you will still get a no, or you may not. Either way, like above, be sure to acquiesce to their wishes. If you do get permission, make sure to note the restriction in your readme to keep others from taking the resource from your mod.

Also, be sure to mention specifically what you want to use. Often, modders will use stock meshes or textures, or may not want to allow further distribution because they are using the resource themselves commercially.

I was looking at the OM meshes today, and I think restored buildings/statics could be easily possible. http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1593/restoredombuildings.jpg a quick poof-of-concept I made out of one of the Hlaalu pieces, with one of the original buildings next to it for comparison. If it looks good, I would be glad to make some more In order to preserve a unique look, it'd be pretty easy to mix and match from different sets so the set sort of has its own style when all put together.

EDIT: Maybe it would help if I actually included the link

Impressive retex Saint_Jiub. In my opinion the Hlaalu set (except the towers) would make an great set once retextured. The building base shapes are very similar.

As for TR meshes, a lot of what looks like new meshes are actually old meshes used in ingenious ways. You would be surprised what can be done by resizing and overlapping old meshes. Take a look at some of the screenshots of Almalexia and Narsis on the TR site. About 90% of what you see that looks like new meshes are in fact old meshes used in new ways.


KF

:ooo: Looks fantastic!

I'll start trying to see what I can do by retexturing some planters and lanterns. :user:

Update! Just a few pieces (not all I've got, but I want there to be SOME surprises )

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3923/omwallcorner.jpg
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/1056/omwallbroken.jpg
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2579/ombuilding.jpg
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6135/ombridgepiece.jpg

I don't know everything that you need, though. You said you wanted to keep the ruins aspect of it, so I tried to do that, but are you still mainly planning on expanding on what's already there with wooden stalls and the like?

Well, I had thought that new buildings would not be added/constructed down there. But, I don't see why we couldn't edit both pre and post monster-clearing (DB slaying) buildings, particularly to the residential area.

Due to lack of construction (masonry and the like), yes, I was thinking of wooden structures or a large open-air market. After all, OM is now underground, and there is no real need for a ceiling.

Now I really can't wait for this! Hey, could I help out with NPC's and dialogue? I've got a few ideas rolling

Ok, well there's only two original building meshes (the conch shell, and the one that I posted for comparison down on the first page), but they're both in good shape. So I'll stop working on buildings for now, and focus more on decorative bits, eh?

Sure! Make sure to save what you have. Even if this mod doesn't use it, it'd make an excellent resource.

I tried my hand at retexturing some lanterns, but I had a very hard time with it. What textures are you using for OM? It's been so long since I've played, I don't recall which of the many textures are used in the Old Mournhold areas. The texture names sometimes give me a clue - "m" "OM" "ruins" - but some of them don't (like the broken tile textures' names don't indicate what area they are used in). :bonk: