Any ideas what the old Nordic shamans/wizards/chanters/Tongues/whatever would have practiced?

Most assumptions seem to be that the Nords hate(d) magic in all its forms, that they were essentially brute warriors. But in Skyrim's main quest, Tsun has a line about respecting the cleverness of a magic-using Dragonborn, IIRC hinting that there were more in the past. There's Ahzidal, the great Nord enchanter from Ysgramor's day (though his study of enchanting revolves around revenge).

'Children of the Sky' has some cool stuff to say about the Thu'um, and the idea that as one travels north, the people become more primitive, to the point where they don't need houses and always carry a wind with them.

It seems there's room for some very interesting ideas about the old-school Nords (or Atmorans - my understanding of the difference is pretty slim) and their relationship to magic.

Aside from the Thu'um, I'd say in terms of magical 'schools' there is a case to be made for the following:

-Conjuration. I believe in 'The Art of War Magic', one of the commentators mentions the Nordic shamans invariably summoning ice demons (frost atronachs? undead, e.g. draugr? something else?) in their battles against the Chimer. Some kind of Nordic 'necromancy' might be attested in the use of Stalhrim to entomb their dead on Solstheim, and the creation of draugr by the dragon priests in Skyrim.

-Enchanting + Smithing. Smithing is a recent skill, of course, but the creation of weapons out of iron/steel has traditionally been understood as a kind of magic, and Nords in Skyrim and previous games often had skill bonuses in Smithing or Armorer. It's reasonable that the ancient Nords would have felt an affinity for the apparently supernatural transfiguration of rare materials into instruments of death, wielded by kings and raiders. Enchanting seems to fit alongside this nicely.

-Restoration. Ancient Nordic magic, if we go with the above, would seem to have a physical, primal, *personal* aspect. Restoration is primarily about healing self or others, and would fit this theme. In Skyrim, Restoration magic also governs the Turn Undead effects, which may have some links with the Conjuration school as mentioned above.

Schools like Illusion, Mysticism, and Alteration seem too subtle/shifty, esoteric, or dramatic, respectively, for the theme I'm imagining. As for Destruction, many would no doubt think Nords would have had a great affinity for Frost magic. Perhaps. I prefer a more... indirect? ... style of old Nordic magic, though. The Thu'um would have stood in for those displays of offensive magic that are otherwise covered by Destruction.

Of course, I could be way off in my assessment. Does anyone know of any sources that might give more insight into the old Nordic magical traditions? I'd love to find some crazy Kirkbridean savage badassness in some corner of TES lore that had escaped my notice so far. Apart from that, what do you think of the above? Anything to add or subtract?

There was plenty of Nord mages, it's only now that Nords are really coming to not like it.

Shalidor was a nord archmage, and I'm pretty sure he was the one who built the college of Winterhold and the Labrynthian(hope I spelled that right).

We of the Priesthood were practicing necromancy and achieving full-flawless-pure Lichdom, a thousand years before Mannimarco was conceived of.

I've always interpreted the ancient Nords/Atmorans as http://www.spartanwarriorphilosophers.com/warrior-philosophers akin to IRL Sparta, but TES'fied with actual arcane magic.

The Nords were not brutish apes like they are today. They were once as wise as they were ferocious in days of yore.

The Dragon Cult in particular was the apex of their arcane wisdom, as they feared not the mysteries of life and death. Rather, death was non-existent to the cult. More like another obstacle for them to surpass, in unity, as one, to AL-DU-IN praise be.

Well based on Gauldur Conjuration and Echanting seem to have been big ones. With all the Draugr even in ruins built after the Dragon Cult fell seems to indicate that Necromancy was also a biggie like you said.

I believe there's 2 npcs in Riften that say their daughter was a healer (Shield-Maiden I think they called her?) who died fighting for the stormcloaks so I assume the ancient Nords had them as well.

So I'd agree with everything you have up there. Especially with Illusion, Mysticism and Alteration being schools of magic that they would likely deem as something for the elves.

And as Akabeer there's also Shalidor. As of skyrim Restoration and Enchanting seems to be the only Schools they still like.

I don't think Shalidor or any of the Nords built the College of Winterhold however they just moved in later. With all the Eye symbols all over it and the Falmers reaction to the Nords finding the eye of Magnus it was probably a Falmeri Temple to Magnus or other structure connected to him.

Hmm, I always assumed the College of Winterhold was a much later establishment.

I'd prefer my ancient Nord mages to be non-city-dwellers, as much as that's possible. The College seems too structured and regulated for how they're described in Children of the Sky.

Well, that is not exactly true. The Chimer conjured up a daedra:

"In the wars between the Nords and the Chimer, the Nord shamans invariably used their mastery of the winds to call down storms before battle to confuse and dismay the Chimer warriors. One day, a clever Chimer sorcerer conjured up an ice demon and commanded him to hide in the rocks near the rear of the Chimer army. When the Nords called down the storms as usual, the Chimer warriors began to waver. But the ice demon rose up as the storm struck, and the Chimer turned in fear from what they believed was a Nord demon and charged into the enemy line, less afraid of the storm than of the demon. The Nords, expecting the Chimer to flee as usual, were caught off guard when the Chimer attacked out of the midst of the storm. The Chimer were victorious that day."

The shouts of Dismay and Kyne's Peace imply that the Nords employed Illusion magic as a tool of psychological warfare and worship of the gods.

@TheBaron7 Your hypothesis of the CoW previously being a temple of Magnus is quite interesting.

Eh it just seems far too different from any of the other stone structures in skyrim that we know for a fact were built by the Nords to me. That and it's always struck me as odd that the great collapse happened more then a century after the eruption of red mountain but around the same time that the Thalmor began trying to deactivate the rest of the towers. Then a few decades after that fails to destroy it Ancano shows up and starts snooping around the place then the Eye of Magnus is uncovered again and the Psijic show up to stop him and the Thalmor.

It all just seems a little to coincidental for me. That and all the games since Daggerfall have involved a tower in some form or another. Numidium, the Heart, WGT. The College being the Falmer tower wouldn't stop the Throat of the World from being one either. Since both Red Mountain and the Numidium both originated right next door in Morrowind. So a divine and Elven tower can exist in the same province. The Falmer were also considered nothing but a myth until the end of the Third Century with no traces of them ever having existed being found until the discovery of the Snow Princes tomb and then two centuries latter the Chantry of Auriel and Vyrthur, Gelebor and the Betrayed.

I just like the thought that a Falmer structure could have been sitting in the center of one of the biggest and oldest Nordic cities in skyrim and no one even realized it. Even the Mages of the college don't know when it was originally built.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Savos_Aren

Edit:

Oh and are there any sources that tell us when exactly the City of winterhold was established? It's entirely possible that the ancient Nords simply avoided the area after failing to destroy the College and only settled the area centuries later after forgetting what it was.

Also Dawnguard seems to show that the Ancient Falmer were much like the Altmer in their religious views and we know that the elven races that didn't stray very far from those views built towers inspired by the Adamantine Tower.

Altmer, Ayleids, Left-Handed elves (Who I personally believe are related to the Orcs and are likely the Elves that held Trinimac in higher regard then Auriel.) and the Bosmer even though their beliefs have deviated more so then the first two and possibly the second until their transformation.

The Dunmer never built a literal tower although ALMSIVI could be their version just as the Dwemer had their Numidium. Hmm on second thought I'd probably place the Bosmer somewhere in between both groups since their tower is sort of in between in terms of how closely it mimics Adamantine Tower in appearance or maybe in a third sort of rough category with the Kahjiit.

Literal Tower

Non Literal Tower

And then well I'm not really sure I'm kind of rambling now I'll just end with it seeming odd that the Falmer would be the only elves without some form of known tower especially with how the Throat of the World seems far more connected to the Nords, Kyne and Shor then anything Elven.

Edit 2:

Although it could be argued that the chantry could have been their tower and just ended up being built later then the merethic just like the Dwemer and Dunmer ones.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Touching_the_Sky_(book) Would seem to support this it could also have simply been a replacement after they lost their original one after the Night of Tears. Whether it is a tower or not I still feel that it's at least connected to Magnus and the Falmer in some way.

Ah sorry for somewhat derailing the thread just something that's been on my mind for a while

Perhaps the CoW grew from being a hermetic order of Jhunal to a full-fledged institution following Winterhold's rise in influence during the 1st or 2nd Eras.

I believe necromancy would probably have been a specialty of the dragon cult, who were trying to cheat Shor of honored warriors so that these could serve the dragons and dragon priests in death.

To me the College's straight columns do look like the Falmer Chantry structures, though lacking pointed arches.

Since the schools of magic as we know them were codified by Galerion, I'd like to think that the Nords had their own ways of magic, the thu'um being the obvious. Breath can be connected to any of the schools, and if it's true that the Nords were breathed out on the Throat of the World- that something significant happened to them there, at least- and since the Time Wound would extend temporally back as well as forward- then manipulation of time seems to also be a Nord thing. Barfok Maid of Planes being one in a long tradition, perhaps. Shor always trying to trick Alduin.

I stand corrected, Gurimbom, thanks! Even without that example, though there's still some other lore to suggest 'necromancy' (in scare-quotes because .... well, just because.).

What are anyone's thoughts on stalhrim fitting in to all of this? Solstheim-specific, sure (I guess), but suggestive of some deep interest in the dead, and understanding of how they ... work.

Great point about the chantry/College architectural similarity, Celan. I'll need to look up Barfok... that name is new to me.

I'm not so sure about Necromancy being restricted to the Dragon cult Draugr can be found in tombs dating from after their fall such as.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Reachwater_Rock and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Geirmund%27s_Hall

Though they could both be repurposed dragon cult era tombs and Draugrfication used on those that they felt weren't worthy of going to sovngarde. After all Gauldurs sons all carry wirts of sealing. and Gerimund doesn't seem to have been turned into a Draugr and his corpse only mummified.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Geirmund

Although the fact that King Harald struck the entire afair from history suggests that he might have had Galuldur murdered and his sons killed to keep it a secret. Although the fact that his sons split up the amulet and went and burned down a bunch of villages instead of trying to kill Harald also suggests that they might have just been insane.

Possibly due to being an earlier structure and not being dedicated to their primary god and therefore purposely less ornate. Although the Chantry did have people there to maintain it for an unknown amount of time before the Betrayed sacked it. The College may have once been just as ornate until the Nords came along and changed it to suit their own needs over the Eras.

Regarding Draugr, I found this interesting snippet in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor-full:

7th Paragraph, Lines 4-5

Combine that with this http://uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-load-No_one_is_quite_sure_why_the_Draugr.jpg, and one can hypothesize that Draugr are linked to Shor.

Interesting so being turned into Draugr may have been a punishment. Ysgramor, Yngol, Gauldur and Geirmund all have tombs and skeletons/bodies but are not draugr and Ysgramor can be found in sovngarde. Yet all of Gauldurs sons and even King Borgas have Draugur and cant be found in sovangarde.

Although Olaf has both a Dragur and can be found in sovngarde.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Olaf_One-Eye

Gauldur's sons had committed treason against his father. They could have earned the dishonor of half-death through that avenue.

Though Borgas and Olaf do throw a wrench into my hypothesis. I believe that they were gameplay oversights on the behalf of Bethesda.

It would have made more sense if Olaf could be found in Sovngarde only after the completion of the BC questline. The resolution of the conflict between Olaf and Svaknir could have lifted the curse from him.

As for Borgas, I'll come back later.

As for Gauldurs sons I mentioned that because it does back up the theory that being turned into Draugr is a punishment.

And your right Olaf could have been cursed for imprisoning Svaknir. Either because he (In Shors eyes) reacted to his claims dishonorably or because Svaknir was right and he was a fraud and tyrant.

As for Borgas perhaps

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Marukh

Certainly seems like it would anger Shor.

Oh yeah, I think Borgas would definitely merit cursing. Imposing not even a Nord-based time god monotheism, but some foreign version, and banning the rest of the Nord pantheon? Nobody liked that guy. Good riddance.

As for it being a curse, it could be that it was both- i.e., Shor cursed the dragon cult members who got too uppity, and they then made lemonade out of undeath.

Or perhaps, it is a difference of perspective? Followers of Shor yearn for a peaceful after-life, in exchange for a harsh, valorous, well-earned death. Followers of Alduin seek immortality here on the mortal plane, in exchange for undying devotion.

Both are True Nords.

Either way angering your God doesn't seem like it works out well for people.

Especially since Shor/Lorkhan doesn't seem like the kind of god that would take kindly to his followers converting to another deity. Neither does Auri-el when it comes to that either especially after what happened to Trinimac after he started becoming more popular then him.

Hmm perhaps the catastrophic fall of the Left-Handed Elves and Falmer are related to that. I've always believed that the Left-Handers where the followers of Trinimac and ancestors to the Orcs due to their shared relation to Orichalcum and apparent Martial prows. As for the Falmer if I'm correct in my belief that the CoW was a Falmer temple/tower to Magnus and part of their reason for flipping out when the nords found his eye perhaps they revered him more and only began worshiping Auri-el so fervently after the Nords came and conquered much of skyrim. After all the Chantry wasn't built until shortly after the beginning of the first era. It does seem that elves fare worse when they start worshiping Auri-el less the Ayleids seem to have either been Meridia or other Daedra worshipers and then they fell and the Altmer seem to have slowly started believing that Akatosh and Auri-el where the same being and then they fell to Tiber septim and the Numidium.

Although perhaps that's simply due to Auri-el being weakened after escaping mundus or (If he's connected to Jyggalag) being ganged up on and cursed by all the Daedric princes similar to what some of them did to Trinimac. He seems to have been MIA since his ascension to aetherius. Then within a mere two centuries since Jyggalags freedom the Altmer quickly became a powerhouse and threat to Man again.

They do seem suspiciously similar although one is clearly angrier and has exchanged his crown and robes for a suit of armour.

http://images.uesp.net/f/fe/SI-creature-Jyggalag.jpg

http://images.uesp.net/2/2c/SR-place-Inner_Sanctum_%28Vale%29_02.jpg

Edit: Also every time the Nords forsake shor they seem to lose some power. The first time under Borgas it lead to civil war and the collapse of the first Nordic empire.

Then more recently once they started to forsake "Talos" Skyrim was again torn apart by civil war and and empire started to collapse.

That works as well, Alduin and the dragons borrowing from shor to make their rule easier to sell to the Nords.

Now you're talking my language!

Indeed. One is a coward. One is a fighter. Hail Jyggalag!

Shor followers see undeath as punishment. True Nords deserve rest for their glorious deeds, and Sovngarde is a well-earned paradise.

Alduin followers believe Sovngarde is punishment, as Alduin feasts on it. True Nords show undying devotion, and walk Tamriel as immortal.

Both perspectives have Nords never fearing death. One believes death leads to rest with their deity[Shor]. The other believes death is just a second stage in their duty to their deity[Alduin].

Well the Draugr seem to be more active since Alduins return. I believe there's a loading screen with something along those lines as well?