Except we're talking about an atmoran culture's religion.


Good luck with that.

I disagree on the Julianos as the most representative totemic symbol of magic , mysticism and wisehood is the Owl , no other animal incarnates it better ...

I woudl leave out of the formula the ysmir as he is not a True God but a "title" honorific and indicative of heroes of a particular kind , in its specific dragonborns ... at most it coudl represent Talos ...

As for the moth I tend to favor Dibella because of it's symbolism , and dibella is female as is the mural ...

there are 3 female figures in the murals and it is not seeming to be a case that

we have moth , wolf and hawk , so beeing sure that the hawk is kyne , then i'ts quite obvious to assign wolf to the nature goddes Mara and finally what remains is the moth that reminds butterflies so it shoudl fit well with Dibella ... no?

About Stun he is a "dead" divinity so no longer shoudl be among the main Gods but is more of a Guardian of Shor ...

Shor in the Northern pantheon takes the place as a sort of Odin , Akatosh is secondary to Shor in this vision and so Is an mportant incarnation of the Time , but is not the ruling Divinity ... it is something put apart ...

eventually it is like Cronos with Zeus .... with Cronos beeing Akatosh and Zeus beeing Shor ...

It that is like so then I would Give Shor the Eagle ( like Zeus ) or the crow ( like Odin ) ... since I see in the Hall of Valour a lot of Eagle like rafigurations ...

Well, yeah, the most difficult thing to overcome about the moth mural being Jhunal is that the figure is depicted as female.

Lucky for me, I've reasoned myself out of it again. If you notice in the Owl mural, there is a constellation of three stars arranged as a triangle. There is still a lot connecting the moth to Dibella too. And not just moth-beauty. There's also the moth connection to a flower, and a connection between the eye and beauty. So yeah, I don't think I'll abandon the Dibella-moth connection just yet.

But btw, Mara isn't the nature goddess, she's the Mother-Love goddess.

Orkey is Malacath not Arkay.

In their nordic counterparts they become more primitive and violent representation and they have a higher accent on some aspects and minor on others , as I see mara here is more like a goddess of nature as a mother earth ...

Nearly revered as a universal goddess, her origins are in mythic times as a fertility goddess. In http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Skyrim, Mara is a handmaiden of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods_K#Kyne. In the Empire, she is Mother-Goddess,

a kind of "Gea" ...


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky

Much too common a foolish answer. Nordic writings often make the mistake of equating Orkey with Malacath, this is untrue.

Orkey is Arkay.

Too add, Mauloc is much closer to Malacath than Orkey.

So Nords don't understand their own religion? Well then what makes you think that you understand it?

Nords don't understand an atmoran religion. Not their own, not any longer.

They never say that Orkey is Malacath. They might be under the impression that orcs worship Orkey, hence why they are called Orkey's people. That is not understanding another culture's religion, not their own.

Edit: Actually, the Nords see Mauloch as a separate god from Orkey. Read Varieties of Faith.

They do according to The True Nature of Orcs.
That doesn't make him Arkay.
There is nothing strange about this, the existence of multiple versions of the same god is quite common theme in TES. Maloch and Orkey could be also seen the same way as Trinimac and Malacath. There could be many explanations and the presence of Maloch in Nordic pantheon doesn't mean that Orkey can't be Malacath.
The texts which suggests that Orkey is Malacath predates Skyrim by hundreds of years.

Could you imagine trying to make one of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-compact.svg/260px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-compact.svg.png for TES gods?

It'd be one helluva' chart.

This is not a Nordic source.


He has a clear connection to death and aging, even limiting the Nords (who claim to have once lived the same lifespan as elves) lifespan to what it is now. This is not a very-Malacath like trait.

That doesn't make it wrong.
It was not his doing, Alduin did it. Orkey summoned Alduin because he hates Nords, which is a very-Malacath like trait.

Never mind.

Good move. I already argued with DarkRalen about this in the http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1340432-matching-up-the-totems/page__st__30 thread. I laid down the Varieties of Faith (Morrowind text), the Third Pocket Guide (Oblivion text), and the Code of Malacath (Skyrim text) before him, but he's pushing for the Morrowind era Five Songs of King Wulfharth and the True Nature of the Orcs as taking precedence over those three. So, I don't think we can possibly convince him otherwise.

Akatosh ( the all maker ) = Dragon
Kyne ( Kynareth )= Hawk
Zenithar ( Zenithar ) = Whale
Julianos ( Junhal ) = Owl
Arkay (Arkay) = Snake
Lorkhan ( Shor ) (Chief of the Gods ) = Bear
Mara (Handmaiden of Kyne)= wolf
Dibella = moth
Stendarr ( Stuhn )= fox

This seems pretty much correct to me do you agree?

Any reason to why you chose these?

You are a wise crusader. I shall take such an approach as well and not enlighten the moritaur no more.

Ok

We agreed that :
















Now for those I am less sure but ...

The mural of the fox represents a sortof warrior with covered face soalso a thief holding bones while the mural of the Whale represents an old man holding arpoons

more like a fisherman ....

Stendarr ( Stuhn )= fox cunning and cleverness

Zenithar ( Zenithar ) = Whale -----------Work commerce trade------- ( Whales travel and represent creativity )




Ysmir is just an Demigod Incarnation and shoudl be associated with Talos , Ysmir was the First Dragonborn , Talos was a Dragonborn and so on .... basically a hero associated with Kyne and Shor ...

SO my final association is Like the following also having a corrispondence on the Murals look in the skyrim game ....


Akatosh ( the all maker ) = Dragon
Kyne ( Kynareth )= Hawk
Zenithar ( Zenithar ) = Whale
Julianos ( Junhal ) = Owl
Arkay (Arkay) = Snake
Lorkhan ( Shor ) (Chief of the Gods ) = Bear
Mara (Handmaiden of Kyne)= wolf
Dibella = moth
Stendarr ( Stuhn )= foxù





I could contest the fox association to Shor as well but the Champions of Talos do wear bearskin pelts and Talos is associated to shor as his champion as all the dragonborns ...

There is nothing in Varieties of Faith, the Third Pocket Guide or the Code of Malacath that suggests that Orkey is not Malacath (all it says is that Mauloch is Malacath which is true). I just don't really understand why so many people think that Orkey is Arkay, there is no evidence to suggest that, only the similarity in their names. So why so many people believe this? It's not that I don't want to believe you because I am stubborn it just doesn't make sense to me what you are saying.

The All-Maker is part of the Skaal religion which isn't followed in mainland Skyrim. The Nordic equivalent to Akatosh is Alduin.

Alduin ent Akatosh. However, the Songs of the Alduagga mention the Aka-Tusk, a somewhat foreign(?) god who claims Alduin was an aspect of him which heaven itself shedded off.

I am not making a comparison to Nord only I am making a comparison to the old ways , the Old totemic pantheon of the nords , in wich Alduin is probably considered as the beginning and the end , the Creation cycle and so Akatosh as the all maker ...