Old way nord Deity corrispondence?

Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:15 am

Alduin ent Akatosh. However, the Songs of the Alduagga mention the Aka-Tusk, a somewhat foreign(?) god who claims Alduin was an aspect of him which heaven itself shedded off.

Never said he were.

But they do occupy the same place in their respected pantheons both Dragon Gods of Time.
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Evaa
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 5:15 am

I am not making a comparison to Nord only I am making a comparison to the old ways , the Old totemic pantheon of the nords , in wich Alduin is probably considered as the beginning and the end , the Creation cycle and so Akatosh as the all maker ...

Also search for Shor son of Shor. The Nords outside the Skaal don't have any maker because they go for cyclical time in the form of kalpas. Alduin is wholly the destroyer, and is the Dragon, but in Atmora rather than be evil he was simply acknowledged the way an earthquake is acknowledged. Do you hate an earthquake? No, because it's not a person to be hated.

Shor, being the "chief" of the gods, is the snake and therefore alike yet unalike to Alduin. Think the difference between a wyvern and a chinese dragon. Then they fight and it's awesome.
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Laura Simmonds
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 7:13 am

I didn't find any reference of snake to Shor and Dragon to Alduin , Alduin is not a God is the son of Akatosh , Akatosh is the Dragon totem ... while shore is most probably related either to some kind of eagle or to a bear according to all the references in Sovngarde as well ...
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Neil
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 8:51 am

There is nothing in Varieties of Faith, the Third Pocket Guide or the Code of Malacath that suggests that Orkey is not Malacath (all it says is that Mauloch is Malacath which is true). I just don't really understand why so many people think that Orkey is Arkay, there is no evidence to suggest that, only the similarity in their names. So why so many people believe this? It's not that I don't want to believe you because I am stubborn it just doesn't make sense to me what you are saying.

Challenging the status quo? I can respect that.

Anyway, I'll try and lay down all the reasons why I think Orkey = Arkay. And most of this comes from Varieties of Faith, since its our best source on the subject.

1. The name Arkay is similar to Orkey. A two-letter difference. This might seem trivial, but as far as drawing comparisons go, its important as this is a common hint in Varieties when drawing comparisons across pantheons. For example: Shor (Nord), Sheor (Breton), and Shezzar (Cyrodiil). And Lorkhan (Elven) and Lorkhaj (Khajiit). Also Stendarr (Cyrodiil) and S'rendarr (Khajiit), or Zenithar (Cyrodiil), Z'en (Bosmer), and Zeht (Redguard). Now obviously this can't be trusted all the time. It could be referring to the Orcs, which it also has a similar name to.

2. When VoF lists the Nordic gods, it lists them as so:
SKYRIM: Alduin, Dibella, Orkey, Tsun, Mara, Stuhn, Kyne, Jhunal, Shor, Ysmir, Herma-Mora, Maloch


If Mauloch (Maloch) is Malacath, and Orkey is Malacath, why would the same god be listed twice? Similarly, in Five Songs, both Orkey and Malooc (though not by name, see the Kyne's Son section) are mentioned. Why not just say that Wulfharth shouted Orkey to hell, if the Orcish chieftan was indeed the Orkey mentioned a stanza later?

3.Of orcs, Varieties writes:
Orkey (Old Knocker): A loan-god of the Nords, who seem to have taken up his worship during Aldmeri rule of Atmora. Nords believe they once lived as long as Elves until Orkey appeared; through heathen trickery, he fooled them into a bargain that 'bound them to the count of winters'. At one time, legends say, Nords only had a lifespan of six years due to Orkey's foul magic. Shor showed up, though, and, through unknown means, removed the curse, throwing most of it onto the nearby Orcs.

From this we can gather that Orkey was not originally a Nordic god, and given that his worship was taken up during Aldmeri rule of Atmora. So given this information we can postulate that the Nords recieved him from the Aldmeri pantheon.

4. Lack of further evidence.
The True Nature of the Orcs, Five Songs of King Wulfharth, and even Varieties (though to a much lesser extent) all draw some sort of connection between the Orcs and Orkey, the connection namely being the old tale of Orkey cursing the Nords down to six years old. But its important to note that none of the say that Orkey is Malacath, when we have numerous texts saying that Maloch is Malacath. And like I said above, Mauloch and Orkey are treated as distinct deities in the texts that they appear together in. Furthermore, in the Third Pocket Guide's detailing of Orsinium, which by far has given us the most information about Orcish religious beliefs, Orkey is not mentioned alongside Malacath (Mauloch), Trinimac, or Torug. That is, if he's a separate member of the pantheon.
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Captian Caveman
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 12:07 pm

While I can see where some would postulate that the murals have females in them, the deities must be a female aspect. This does not in my opinion suggest that the dieties depicted by the animals are in fact whatever six the humaniods in the murals happen to be. Further I would like to state that I am unsure that six has any thing to do with which diety the animal totems are to represent. We have seen in the daedra for example that some are depicted as female others as male and some it depends on which region you are in what six they appear to be. These murals are much older then the current pantheon. It has been suggested that in times past there have been alterations to the personages. Some were supposedly "replaced" some were no longer worshipped and so on. I think we would have to know more about these totems to have a more accurate idea of which dieties matched up with which totems if they match up at all.
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Reven Lord
 
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Post » Thu May 03, 2012 10:13 pm

1. The name Arkay is similar to Orkey. A two-letter difference. This might seem trivial, but as far as drawing comparisons go, its important as this is a common hint in Varieties when drawing comparisons across pantheons. For example: Shor (Nord), Sheor (Breton), and Shezzar (Cyrodiil). And Lorkhan (Elven) and Lorkhaj (Khajiit). Also Stendarr (Cyrodiil) and S'rendarr (Khajiit), or Zenithar (Cyrodiil), Z'en (Bosmer), and Zeht (Redguard). Now obviously this can't be trusted all the time. It could be referring to the Orcs, which it also has a similar name to.
And that's why I think that you can't rely on the similarity between names, I could easily claim that "Orkey" is derived from "Orcs".
2. When VoF lists the Nordic gods, it lists them as so:


If Mauloch (Maloch) is Malacath, and Orkey is Malacath, why would the same god be listed twice? Similarly, in Five Songs, both Orkey and Malooc (though not by name, see the Kyne's Son section) are mentioned. Why not just say that Wulfharth shouted Orkey to hell, if the Orcish chieftan was indeed the Orkey mentioned a stanza later?
The reason could be in what you said later - they were adopted to nordic pantheon in different times, so they can be perceived as different deities in the same way as is Alduin/Akatosh/Auriel/etc. Also it could be that they represent the difference between Malacath and Trinimac, in nordic mythology Orkey is fighting Wulhart which could be seen as an echo of the fight between Trinimac and Lorkhan.
I don't see anything strange in referring to Orkey only as "chief" in the Five Songs...?
And even if Orkey is not Malacath, than way Arkay (besides the name), why not Y'ffre?

3.Of orcs, Varieties writes:

From this we can gather that Orkey was not originally a Nordic god, and given that his worship was taken up during Aldmeri rule of Atmora. So given this information we can postulate that the Nords recieved him from the Aldmeri pantheon.
Trinimac is in the Atlmeri pantheon so it is possible.

4. Lack of further evidence.
The True Nature of the Orcs, Five Songs of King Wulfharth, and even Varieties (though to a much lesser extent) all draw some sort of connection between the Orcs and Orkey, the connection namely being the old tale of Orkey cursing the Nords down to six years old. But its important to note that none of the say that Orkey is Malacath, when we have numerous texts saying that Maloch is Malacath. And like I said above, Mauloch and Orkey are treated as distinct deities in the texts that they appear together in. Furthermore, in the Third Pocket Guide's detailing of Orsinium, which by far has given us the most information about Orcish religious beliefs, Orkey is not mentioned alongside Malacath (Mauloch), Trinimac, or Torug. That is, if he's a separate member of the pantheon.
But that's not true - Orkey didn't cursed the Nords and the The True Nature of the Orcs explicitly says that Orkey is Malacath.
Orkey is a nordic name, so it is not supposed to be in the PGE's section about Orsinium.
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claire ley
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 5:45 am

Ok I Asked all those questions because in my Skyrim Mod Issgard I am placing some ancient tribal Totems with a correspondence to Tamrielic Pantheon and Nordic Pantheon so ....

I have four main shrines on the Island

Dragon
Bear
Owl
Hawk

then I have minor shrines of

Wolf
Whale
Moth
Snake
Fox


For my Interpretation Alduin and Akatosh in the Nordic lore are considered almoust a similar dualistic Divinity ...

their simbol is the Dragon and revered as God of Cycles and creation and time ....

I assigned to Talos the Simbol of the Bear or War God ....

Junhal simbol is the Owl , because since ages in histoory and tradition the Owl is the most mystic totem for magic and wistom and knowledge

Kyne for obvious reasons is the Hawk

Ysmir is not considered a God but a Demigod Sent by Shor to help the mortals in the form of a Dragon of the North

Shor symbol for my point of view coudl be the Eagle ( you find simbols of this rapax all over in the Hall of valour )


So my corrispondence is as follow almoust final ...

Bear - Talos
Wolf - Mara
Hawk - Kyne
Owl - Juhnal
Whale - Tsun
Fox - Stendarr
Snake - Arkay
Moth - Dibella
Dragon - Akatosh

Estras :


Northern Dragon - Ysmir
Eagle - Shor


I believe this is also the most correct lore wise interpretation of the Nordic Totems - Nordic Pantheon interpretation ....
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Ross Zombie
 
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Post » Fri May 04, 2012 1:01 am

Just because this was bumped...

And that's why I think that you can't rely on the similarity between names, I could easily claim that "Orkey" is derived from "Orcs".

Could be.

I don't see anything strange in referring to Orkey only as "chief" in the Five Songs...?

I was a little unclear here. The "chief" mentioned in Five Songs who was defeated at the battle of Dragon Wall and retreats to the east is Malooc, at least according to Varieties of Faith. What I was trying to point out is that this "chief" is mentioned right before Orkey is brought up. If Mauloch is Orkey, then why did Five Songs differentiate between the "chief" and "Orkey?"

And even if Orkey is not Malacath, than way Arkay (besides the name), why not Y'ffre?

Why not? Well, I suppose because Arkay is our best guess. No one knows who Y'ffre is. I once pointed out that Y'ffre may be the Altmeri/Bosmeri equivalent of Kyne, a connection I made via the Cyrodiilic goddess Kynereth. Basically I suggested that Kynereth might be a fusion of Kyne-Y'ffre or Kyny'ffre. That's just a guess though.

Trinimac is in the Atlmeri pantheon so it is possible.

Yes, if you want to make the comparison between Trinimac-Orkey and not Malacath-Orkey. Malacath is decidedly not part of the Elvish pantheon. I think the Trinimac comparison is fair, and I like the connection you made between Ysmir-Orkey and Trinimac-Lorkhan, but I've already theorized elsewhere that (and I think I have more evidence for) Tsun is the Nordic equivalent of Trinimac.

But that's not true - Orkey didn't cursed the Nords and the The True Nature of the Orcs explicitly says that Orkey is Malacath.
Orkey is a nordic name, so it is not supposed to be in the PGE's section about Orsinium.

May I eat my own tongue. I was wrong about True Nature not linking the two directly. I was thinking of Five Songs at the time, which doesn't.
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Ilona Neumann
 
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