Lorkhan's objective wasn't Aurbis, it was Anu and Padomay again, during whatever increment of time in which they were one.

Extraterrestrial goblins were throwaway lore because it was irrelevant to what goblins are today and the way people treat them. The origins of the orcs determines their appearance, personality, political status, the presence and history of two gods, raises some questions about Aedra and Daedra, and ties into the Velothi Exoduus. At this point, it doesn't qualify as a Tolkien ripoff anymore (seems like a deliberate poke at Tolkien, who would never have anything defecate), which is why no one ever brings it up.

You have corrupted Elves and corrupted Elves. Tolkeen seemed to have a few visions on them, either bred, created as a mockery, or corrupted. The Orcs here aren't so much corrupted as they are disgraced and cast (defecated) out.

Only picturing them as corrupted Elves doesn't do them justice.

Not doing justice is usually the objective in this sort of situation.

Ah I'm surprised at how lively this forum is. Defecating and all.

I'm still currious though. Which theory do you think holds more water? Yffre stabilizing Ehlnofey in all the different forms or different things comming from different Aedric planes used in the construction of nirn?

Hoo boy. We won't go into the other "lively" areas.


Why is it an either/or situation? The collaborative project was chaotic in the beginning, and some people had to die to stabilize it.

Magnus: Lets make everybody Horses!
Mora-Xerxes: I like trees! Everybody is trees!
Shor: Man. I wan't Man!
Sep: Gimme my snakes!
Alduin: You had your snakes last weak. Shut up.

Azura: Now don't mind me if I make a few kitties.

Y'ffre: ENOUGH!

xD best reply in history.

The whole story just seems contrived. Trinimac is awesome. Trinimac has a posse of boy scouts. Boethiah eats Trinimac. Identity theft. Chimer leave. Boy Scouts try and stop them. Boy Scouts get asses kicked. Boethiah's done and [censored] out Trinimac. Now everyone's ugly and mean and green. This all just comes back to a guy getting eaten and then [censored] out only with gods. How does Trinimac getting his identity stolen and then failing to stop an exodus corrupt a whole group of people?

The only saving grace tot his whole scenario is the "other" relationship between Trinimac and Malcath, but since you at least deny this entire theory, I don't see this as anything more then a really vulgar and idiotic take-off (not a carbon-copy, but clearly inspired by) Tolkien's orcs.



Go do a search for Muatra. It'll be fun I promise

It's okay Mortazo. I like to ride my own hobby-horses too. But if you take the Warcraft rip-off to the LoTR rip-off. Can I at least have the inspired and slightly funny-in-the-poop-sense version?

I think they need to know more Warcraft lore before drawing such parallels. Warcraft Orcs are more like ES Orcs than ES Goblins. Curiously enough, Warcraft Goblins are more like ES Bosmer than anything else, perhaps with a healthy dose of Dwemer thrown in and definitely more vicious.

Whatever floats your boat, I'm not telling you what to think, I'm just expressing my opinion

If you listen to some creation myths in RL, it gets pretty vulgar and base too. For instance, in Shintaoism, as this one Warrior-God-Hero is cleaning himself up from this fight he had, he created a whole boatload of gods from various 'cleansed' parts of him, including the Sun Goddess. And some of the stuff was from coagulated blood and pus, sweat, grime, and toe-cheese.

This is not also to mention the numerous creation stories involving pregnancy.

Using bodily functions as a metaphor for creation is a long and honored tradition in mythology. The fact that it isn't used more in ES speaks to its artificiality.

But TES lore isn't only myths, it has scholary interpretations and those lack bodily functions metaphors. Other than that TES myths are using the bodily functions as metaphors - shedding skins, Et'Ada being created from blood, Aedra giving birth to the world...

But that's what those myths are, strange metaphors at best and too much mead helping you contemplate your world-view at worst.

I'm fairly certain that the creation has a solid logical base and the myths and scholarly interpretations have been derived from that. And I'd like to find it.

Always felt the part about [censored]tting was metaphorical childishness - whatever was intended. And that's often a part of Mythologies - and ancient writings, they do not limit themselves to modern mores.

Please don't forget that Tolkien based his stuff on other people's ancient stuff. That's just the way it works - traditions get handed down. What matters is the quality of the latest incarnation. and Tolkien packaged it in a way that became comprehensible and assimilable to modern enthusiasts.

"So Sithis begat Lorkhan and sent him to destroy the universe. Lorkhan! Unstable mutant!"

"According to his worshipers, Sithis was the huge black nothingness that existed before creation. It was then that the 'Aurbis', the soul of the void, formed, thus creating Aetherius and Oblivion. This interpretation of events differs from most other versions. He is referred to by some texts and legends as a child of Mephala, while some say he is Mephala (just in different form and appearance)."



People seem to be forgetting about Good old Sithis. I am speculating given everything you find out in the ES games, Sithis may in fact be the universe it's self.

Sithis = Pandomay. Lorkhan is known to be the only Pandomay aligned Et'Ada having to do with creating Mundus. The void, the limit, the chaos. That's Pandomay.

Please show what your quotes come from. Who are these worshippers? From what does their belief stem?

In response The Monomyth says:


There is an interesting thing going on here that so directly relates to the title of this thread - the apparent contradiction between the stated Elven/mer attitude to change and their attitude to Sithis and Lorkhan. It is as though the elves/mer are in self-denial and they hate the reality of that which they claim to most value.

brilliant thread, great read. I've been really getting into the ES lore recently, by all means im no where near as knowledgable as allot of you here seem to be so am not going to try and drop my piece into the more hardcoe aspects of this discussion, vastly informative as it is. I am posting meerly as i have my own theory on the original question posed.

On the subject of where all the "other" creatures/mortals came from, to take a quote from the Creation section of the Lore archives on the UESP ES wiki:

"The Mundus is formed, the hub of the wheel that is Aurbis, and most of its creators die or are crippled by their sacrifices. They exist as shadows of their former selves. The new land is a chaotic place where time follows no clear path and creation is constant, following a downward spiral that causes levels of existence to create lesser levels beneath themselves. This results in the dissolution of many spirits and the creation of mortals, whose memories from this time result in their creation myths."

( source: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore%3a%44awn_Era )

When i read this it gave enough for me to 'presume', at least, how all mortals (by this i mean every non Et'ada) came into being.

I see it as this downward spiral encompasses the physical creation of planes and the 'ethereal' creation of life/beings/states of existence. It may be completely wrong and not follow allot/some of the establishes lore, i couldn't say as i'm not read up enough to say. But to me this seems logical.

At first were the Et'ada, before the creation of Mundus there was no differentiation between Aedra and Daedra, the creation of mundus started the downward spiral of change, creating the lesser and lesser levels of existence and because of the choice to be part of or not of creation, the Et'ada split into what we know as the Aedra and Daedra. This is the first (highest) level of existence thus created (arguably the second highest level, yet the highest level 'created'), In so much that the Aedra and Daedra are no longer Et'ada in their purest form as the creation of mundus, the altering of the literal fabric of Aurbis also alters the very essence the Et'ada are comprised of and connected, unassailably to. Hence them now being fundementaly changed, becoming lesser representations of their original state of being as the Et'ada, emerging as the Aedra/Daedra.
The spiral moves on, descending.
This dynamic flow of creation following a descending motion forms the many levels of existence we may be able to relate to in our real world as something similar to 'levels of consciousness' for the 'ethereal' aspect, and 'dimensions' (in the metaphysical term) for the 'physical' aspect. This downward spiral of creation is a constant flow. Begining in the divine heights of ether and spirit, and ending at the very stone, mud and water that comprises mundus. With every hue of the spectrum in between comprising of every level of existence mentaly and physically.
The Spiral moves on.
The Ehlnofey descend out of the Aedra/Daedra, emerging as their first ('highest') state, Earth bones, creating what we can relate to as the 'laws of nature'. The Ehlnofey are lesser representations of the Aedra/Daedra, which in turn are lesser representations of the Et'ada, which in turn are lesser (fractured) representations of Anu/Padomay which in turn are lesser (fractured) representations of Aurbis. Everything is one, essentially, everything is Aurbis, represented through differing levels of existence, each level complete within itself and an identifiable objective 'quanta', yet each simultaneously an indefinable 'piece' of Aurbis. Like droplets of water in an ocean, each unique, yet cumulatively one, Aurbis.
The spiral moves on.
The Progenitors emerge from the Ehlnofey, (arguably the Ehlnofey, in the state they are quantifiable as a distinct entity have a dualistic nature, a higher and lower aspect. the higher being the Earth bones, as mentioned previously, this second, lower state, emerging from its higher aspect, along the descending spiral of creation, is the emergence of the Progenitors.) The Progenitors, in my opinion are a state of supreme beingness, yet within a very 'real/hard/physical' level of existence, a perfect balance between hard, cold physicality and sublime ether. The first 'race', and the closest to what we may call 'mortals' at this point, yet still very 'immortal/supreme'. The blueprint from which the mortals of Mundus we know of today emerged from.
The Spiral moves on.
The Ehlnofey now 'sparks' out downward along the spiral through the Progenitors (or you could say the spiral itself begins to frey), fracturing and spliting out, like a bolt of lightning, fracturing into the different types of mortals. This 'bolt' still follows the rule of existing as a lesser representation, a more physical and less sublime espect of itself the 'lower' it gets, yet the 'fracturing' into the different branches is the easiest way to invision how the many different 'types' of beings were formed out of the Ehlnofey/emerged from the Progenitors.
The (proto-)Mer Emerge from the Progenitors, the Mer are the first truly 'mortal' beings to be formed towards the lower levels of the spiral, yet the highest on the 'hierarchy' if you like, of how 'divine' the lesser beings(mortals) are.
The 'humans' emerge from the Progenitors, below the Mer along the spiral. Less divine than than the Mer, less magickally enclined, more brutish, more 'human' (wink).
The beast people emerge from the Progenitors below the humans along the spiral, again becoming lesser, leaning more towards the 'purely' mortal and further away from the divine from whence all came, always following the rule of the spiral, the rule of creation.
Finally the true beasts emerge from the Progenitors, below the Beast people. The lowliest and most 'physical' of all beings, possessing no 'magick' within their being. They are a step above the literal rock and water of Nirn.

and so the spiral is complete. Everything has been created. Aurbis has completed its journey of creation, representing itself through every level of existence. All i have written above is to be taken as differing levels/representations of Aurbis along the spiral of creation as it descends.

Everything is created, everything on the hierarchy is a literal lesser representation of the aspect from which it emerged, the beasts 'are' the beast people, the beast people 'are' the humans, the humans 'are' the Mer, these 'are' all the Progenitors which 'are' the Ehlnofey, which in turn 'are' the Aedra/Daedra, which in turn 'are' the Et'ada which are essentially Anu/Padomay which are.... Aurbis.

This is purely the creation of the original beings, the splitting of them into their subraces can be explained in the already established lore, and the gradual evolution of cultures and specific enets that changed their nature and such (e.g. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aldmer)

This theory seems quite sound to me, for instance the Mer generally are more 'divine' than the other mortal beings, for instance they hold memories of Aldmeris, their original lost homeland of legend, which is also known as Old Ehlnofey, coincidence? Do they hold actual distant memory of being the Ehlnofey itself? Was there a time of myth (post dawn era, pre merythic era?) when all that existed Et'mundus was Aldmeris and the Proto-Mer? Some divine pre Nirn realm.

If all levels of Aurbis are connected like is proposed in this theory allot of things fall into place. As i said it seems sound to me. I've obviously left out allot of the finer detail, but by all means piece it into the theory, hopefully you will find it fits, at least it seems to for me.

Right, i'm ready for my beat down now.

You're such a racist.

Anyways, I wrote the part of the article you quoted, trying to be economical with words and without any particular source in mind, so it's my personal take on the whole situation.

But remember that through this whole process of creation and subcreation, when the primeval races originated, took place in the Dawn Era when time wasn't linear and matter was immediately subject to thought, whim, chance, and perspective. Different philosophies crafted tentative, highly-fluid identities which were solidified by the Convention, when the reaction of each culture to the dismemberment of Lorkhan created their personas in the new age of linear time.

So if race is a function of a certain set of perspectives during a period that lacks all chronology, is one race really higher than another or are they all mortals? If elves are higher than men, it means that the men grew out of them, as creation continued to divide itself into exponentially smaller pieces. More likely the Aldmer simply identify themselves spiritually with higher, Anuic elements of the universe and take physical forms appropriate to that affiliation. So it can be argued that mortals are a level of creation to themselves, without clear gradations.

Your characterization of the beast men is incorrect, since Khajiiti are related to the Aldmer and Argonians come from a different branch of creation altogether, the mysterious Hist. It is for this reason that they are regarded as the Other, and "enjoy the most alien intelligence on the continent."

Lastly, the scheme of subgradient creation goes something like this:

Godhead (some call it Anu, some call it Sithis or the Void, some call it AE)
Splits into Anu and Padomay
Whose interplay creates Aurbis and the multitude of spirits who witness creation and live in it.

Certain et'ada reenact this process in creating the Mundus, with eight Aedra, Lorkhan, and some others forming a collaborative divinity that can exist without their full presence. It follows the same pattern of subcreation, becoming diverse and unpredictable. The Aldmer see this as the world degrading.

1 makes 2 makes 4 makes a whole damn lot

That's the mer perspective - that they came from something bigger. It's a bit defeatist in a way.

Is there a counter perspective that, whatever there was in the past, mortal civilisation is actually progressing upwards?

A double spiral in two different directions sounds much more intriguing.

The god that created you is bigger than you, isn't he? Dagon was pretty tall. The sky is a lot bigger than the Earth, isn't it? It goes on forever, and us Nords came about when the sky breathed on a mountaintop.

The Dwemer loathed the mechanics of subgradient and their station in it, so they tried to subvert the process by building themselves back up to the magnitude of what came first. It's why you had a million little dwarves one second and a single huge robot the second.

Not that it matter much but Baladas said that the Dwemer didn't see themselves as lesser. They were the divine, only fractured.

No. If they were exactly equal we wouldn't need two different names for them.

I obviously have a whole lot to learn. I'm trying desperately to think of a relevant reply but the vast weight of new information is crushing my feeble mind...

I'll be back...

'Aldmeris' rather refers to a common belief among Mer, not an actual homeland. Them losing Aldmeris refers to a fracture/schizm in those beliefs, and led to an exodus of Mer, i.e. the Chimer to Morrowind, Ayleids to the Heartlands, etc.

I believe the Nu-Mantia Intercept dealt with this matter.