Where the hell did the animals, monsters, goblins, dragons and akaviri races come from?

Naturally, I do have a theory(three theories tbh), but I'd like someone else to have a stab at this first .

Just a guess for some of these, but maybe it's like the Australian aboriginal myths. There was a time when humans and animals alike were spirits. Maybe Tamriel's animals are the descendants of the gods/spirits, the way the mortals are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreaming_(spirituality)

All created by the gods?

Created by the Aedra? Meh. For all I understand from the lore - no Et'Ada can truly create. Every Et'Ada except for the Et'Ada that escaped to Aetherius before Mundus was finished, governs its plane and the Et'Ada that became Aedra used theirs to create Mundus. They can however subcreate, that's how the Ehlnofey came to be.

And that's my first theory - That there's more to subcreation than just the Ehlnofey. I think it'd work like a reverse evolution of sorts. Dragons first, Ehlnofey later, beasts last. Then stop at a certain point, presumably when Lorkhan dropped his spark.

The second theory is that the landmass where the hist and argonians survived the creation of Mundus wasn't the only one and more races from the original planes survived. And indeed some of the other races or beasts are the original lower Aedra.

Third is change. Like Chimer to Dunmer. Or jungle cats to Khajit.

Or perhaps a mix of those.

Okay. I can tell you've read on Aedra and Deadra. Which is good, but it's also an introduction to the layman.

It mentions the Aedra and Daedra, the spirits that partook in creation and those who didn't. Together they are part of a larger collection called the et'Ada, which means spirits.
When you think about it for a while, all change is creation and creation is change. What you can atribute to the Aedra though is that they did create Mundus and that the Daedra didn't, but only immitated what they saw in their own realms.
Also in some readings it is even suggested that the creation of Mundus transformed the et'Ada who didn't participate in creation or outright created the Daedra.

Reverse evolution or devolution is the right word. I'd debate your ordering but there isn't enough source material to argue any way. Either way the Heart of the World and the Anuad mentions some aspects of it.


As for the original question, there are two readings about Yffre, one that he stabalized the world when people were trapped between plants and man or mer, or they were trapped between plants, animals and man or mer. Faith in the Empire has the latter one, Words of the Clan mother the former.

So animals weren't so much created, but rather they were forced to remain animals.

I still can't really decide if Akatosh was the first original soul that made time to help the other Et'Ada form, and then helped create mundus, or if all Et'Ada formed first and akatosh only made time after mundus was created to stabilize it. The first would negate the claims of the scriptures you mentioned. Unless it all happened at once. Which would be sort of logical as there was no time for it to hapen any other time. Hm, yes. Perfectly Logical.

Anyway. More of my rambling. What I think about the Et'Ada: It doesn't matter if they're inclined towards Anu or Pandomay or both, doesn't matter if they became Aedra or Daedra. They've all got something in common. They are threefold. They're both the limitless planes that appear as spheres to the mortal eye, they're their planes as they appear on the inside, and they're also what they like to represent as themselves. They're all of that and without one there can't be the other. Going out from this logic - my claims are that the Daedra aren't trying to imitate Mundus for their planes are themselves and represent what they are, believe themselves to be or want other to believe they are. Ok perhaps they might be trying to imitate Mundus. However they already had to have their planes before Mundus was created if my theory is correct. Unless they were swimming the waters of oblivion at the time.

But yes, this would mean that Mundus was created from what some of the will-be-Aedra thought of themselves at the time. And some of the today's races might be the lower would-be-aedra that occupied their planes at the time. That's what I based my reasoning on.

Some might claim that such theorem is undoubtedly false as there are no visible planets of the Daedra. Indeed, but that's because they're not in Mundus. Some might claim that that's impossible because that would mean that the visible planets mean that some Aedra still have their own planes. This is might be true. Consider, Akatosh has his own lower Aedra that don't appear on Nirn except in time of a dragon break. Where are they the rest of the time? Indeed this would mean that the most of the differences between the surviving Aedra and the Daedra would be which side of the liminal barrier they're positioned on.

Hm, I'm almost certain that I missed something... oh well. Please, do discuss these crazy ideas of mine.

Lets see, Anu created Akatosh and time began, other spirits found it easier to form and the et'ada came into being.
Pandomay created Lorkhan who tricked some of the et'ada into giving up a part of themselves to form the mortal plane, they were the Aedra.
The other et'ada, now Daedra, created realms of everlasting imperfection inside themselves, thus not surendering their power,
these planes sort of linked and became what's now known as Oblivion, I doubt they'd be swimming in the waters of Oblivion when Mundus was created.

That's what I understood from all of it :shrug:.

Anu and Padomay don't create anything, they simply burst into a swirling, multi-faceted Aurbis filled with equal parts entropy and potential. It's spiritual, ideological mitosis- the first cell division.

Edit: Or rather, Anu and Padomay themselves were the result of the first cell division.

Or more like... The Aurbis bursted from a point into a swirling multi-faceted space with two counter poles - Anu and Pandomay. And in between them, close to the neutral space the Et'Ada have begun.

I personally think of Anu and Pandomay as of an additional dimension. Space/time/Anu<->Pandomay.

Why should there be poles? I like it better with just a bunch of spirits bouncing off the walls. Structure and alignment comes later, once everyone gets their act together.

Because they're each others oposites.

Duality. For some reason TES lore breathes with the word "Duality". For me it does at least.

It's not just you.

Anyways, when everything is organized, the Aurbis is like an egg with Aetherius as the shell and Mundus as the yoke with void inbetween. Before that is arranged, space and time are largely meaningless anyway, and everything has a chaotic air about it, with spirits milling about trying to form themselves and short-lived personal realities, Lorkhan trying to find the edge of the universe, etc. Nothing has crystallized yet, and everything is unfettered. Duality exists, but as a snow globe with blank and white flakes. I think the Aldmer would rather return to this scene of original spirits than just be half of a large ying-yang.

So would Lorkhan .

But yeah, your snow globe image is a good one. That's why I've said dimension. Not length, not width, not depth, not time, something else entirely. White flakes being close to one part of the spectrum, the blank ones to the other.

If I understood the Redguard stuff at The Imperial Libary, the goblins were created when the original Redguards closed an oblivion gate out of which they were pouring. When the gate closed instead of being superhuman giants they became shrunken weaklings and so went to hide in the dark places.

Oh and I read somewhere, but can't remember where, that Nirn was made of fragments of 12 worlds that got shattered... so there must have been even more things wandering about that didn't survive.

He led the charge to abandon that state by building the Mundus out of it. Why would he want to go back?

1. Grey Mabye. Et'Ada try to be but die.
2. Auri-El/Tall Papa/Akatosh/ comes along and introduces time. The et'Ada become immortal.
3. The Aurbis splits into Atherius filled with Magicka and Oblivion filled with Void.
4. Lorkhan comes up with a plan to create Mundus as a return to the first brush, #1.
5. Mundus is made in the image of the Grey Maybe, the participating et'Ada become mortal again.
6. The creation of Mundus changes et'Ada /creates new Daedra.
7. Aedra duke it out with their mirror images in a phantom war.
8. Aedra depart. End of the Dawn Era.



I was referring to Shezarrs song from the Monomyth. Though that may be a self aggrandizing perspective. So yes, imitation isn't a given.



On the Dwemer Orrery the planets orbit Nirn, which would suggest that they (their planets) are part of it.

The past-killers would try and tell you that was retconned out. Originally, it was said the goblins poured out of a portal to another dimension (could have been Oblivion, but didn't have to be. This was in the days were there were more then just two other dimension in TES, though some might argue that that fact was never really removed). Regardless, the retconners now claim the portal wasn't a portal, but Boethiah's buttcrack, and when he [censored] out the big orc Trinimac (as Malacath) he also [censored] out alot of Orcish dingleberries which were all the golbins and goblin'ken (like orgres). I find the explanation pretty ridiculous, so I just stick with the old one.

As for the 12 worlds thing, it is often said it is an allegory to all the Aedra that sacrificed themselves to create Mundus. Except that there were only 10 of them and there are 12 planets in the story.

Wrath of the Lich King made Warcraft ridiculous too, so now what have we got?

I would argue WoW killed the Warcraft franchise

The new origins of Malacath don't at all invalidate the old explanation for the goblin's origins. Why can't they be still from another realm. What's with the mad quest to invalidate every piece of lore from pre-Morrowind? I mean, I know they're anoying and stupid, but why do goblins literally have to be [censored]? To me its just juvenile and unneeded, like a second Wow expansion pack...

I meant because Warcraft goblins came from space portals too, and the games are uncomfortably contemporary. Plus, goblins are like trolls- they live under bridges wherever knights have shining armor and princesses have tall pointy hats. They're earthliest monsters in existence. Fairies and gnomes can't be martians.

I don't know why the Orcs get away with their Tolkien-inspired origins, but I think it has to do with the juvenile appeal forum-censored words and how it gives Malacath an interesting dynamic. And the literal-but-not imagery of eating/excreting fits an ES theme that transplants folk story suspension of disbelief and wonder into high fantasy, which is usually stolid and deliberately mundane.

Warcraft goblins are http://www.wowwiki.com/Goblin.

I know. The orcs came out of portals. Since ES goblins sound too much like WC orcs, the "Past-Killers" say that the goblins in the story were just orcs. They're both green, right?

Yes, that's IMHO the best conclusion, even though some clues point in different dirrections, it's sometimes so hard to differentiate between what really might be and scholarical misconceptions or bardical fabula. Only if it was always as simple as understanding the mistranslation one certain scholar did on the words of a certain crocodile shaped non-philosophically minded "daedra" he summoned. ("ET DAEDROTH" it replied! A Daedroth it is then!) heh
Indeed, 12 worlds, 12 planes, 12 Et'Ada. Some escape, Some become nirn and its earthbones and the rest keep guard and uphold the liminal barrier.

Sometimes I wonder If the escape of Magnus and his friends was planed by Lorkhan.

Read above

Oh another thing. Stars = holes on the tapestry of oblivion=void that lead to Atherius. Woudn't it be more logical if oblivion!=void? If stars are the holes to Atherius, shouldn't the unstars of the snake be holes to the void? Holes that lead to what they "hole trough" don't make much sense, right?

I would take the Warcraft rip-off to the LoTR rip-off any day. I mean, every D&D nerd and his grandma rips of Tolkien, but Warcraft was a just a cult rts in 1996.

And I think that whole expectation that goblins have to be mundane beacuse they're folklore classics isn't something that needs to be fed. Let's mix it up a little, make them otherworldly demons or something. I mean my friend was playing Oblivion and was like "so these Orcs have pointy ears, they're not corrupted elves are they? Because that would be cliche" I sadly had to respond that they WERE actually corrupted elves and NOT space invaders with my only saving grace being that at least the dwarves were actually elves.

I don't have a problem with change, but only if the change is creative. Making the orcs cliched Tolkien-esque corrupted elves or the eastern snake-men's mean-eating actually being LITERAL eating (as opposed to cultural assimilation) really doesn't stack up with genuinely creative elements like Nedic origins or Dwemer history.

No he is right. Lorkhan aims for #1. Altmer aim for #3. You could say the list is spiralling inwards, alternating between two extremes on an ever decreasing scale.