Why does that make the debate pointless?

A system developing you into an OP character is flawed, however, it is up to the developers to balance things. Now you could argue the new system is balanced (I personally disagree) due to the way enemies scale and assuming you are playing on survival. However, and maybe this was just me, but towards the end of FO3 and NV I still had problems with Deathclaws sneaking up on me, they where still an enemy to be feared. This is simply not the case in FO4, now I just unload a shotguns contents into their faces and they never do damage my way. In other words I think the previous system resulted in a less OP character (still OP).

A debate like this caught by Bethesda may result in a marriage taking the best of both worlds.

Just imagine a FO5 with a ranked skill system (like FO4) where each skill is situational (like SOME of NV/3 Perks), your stats are defined entirely by SPECIAL which you can only raise every five or so levels, and there is no scaling enemies, rather a system in place where a level 50 character can still be taken down by mole rats if careless (because the skills would be situational, and therefore not plain boring buffs to take everything out). It'd be great if it also had a handful of Traits return but with more considerable flaws associated with them, and possibly perk-sets dedicated to each trait.

That to me is a mix of two systems married perfectly, with some advances in areas I personally think Bethesda should be moving towards. Ofcourse that is my opinion, I am sure some people out there would hate it.

Couldn't agree more so called "streamlining" is garbage.


In truth it is just dumbed down for candycrush, farmville and cod money.


That [censored] won't last forever though.

This line made me laugh. Thank you!

You are welcome

As long as people take it with ... sarcasm (lol).

Some people get giant veins on their forehead about these changes ...

Maybe the rewards are too significant, I don't feel this means the entire system is broken however.

Perhaps a broad spectrum nerf to a large number of the perks would be much more fitting than trying to replace the whole system.

Make the damage increasing perks less powerful, but amplify their utility and suddenly you are going to have a different balance of power.

For theory's sake

Unarmed perk

Increase the disarm and stagger chance with each level by a lot more, but only gain 5% damage per level.

By level 5 you will be able to get into a fistfight and take away enemies' weaponry and beat them down with your own, but you aren't doing an insane amount of extra damage that the tougher enemies can't still put up a fight. Still op in endgame, but for different reasons.

I dont disagree with you guys saying the system is pointless to a degree. Mostly because the builds are so obvious: Get the damage from 3 char, the damage from 3 luck, the damage for your weapon and you're good to go.

The thing is, though, this isn't a min/max mmo. This is a single player game and you can craft your own adventure with your own selfimposed rules. Don't want 300% extra damage? Don't tag the perks. Don't want that OP railroad sniper? Don't buy it. Don't wear optimized chameleon armor.

Not that I have the self control to do any of this. I'm a min/max'er at heart, but I can't help but feel I've broken the game when my builds reach level 30+

Yeah heh, sarcasm isn't exactly right more like I have an understanding of a necessary evil trending with big game devs.

Catering a game to a more hardline fan/player just doesn't mean as much anymore.

My guess is that Howard and crew do love the game and respect what it means to some of us.

At the same time they have bosses that they answer to and such have to comprimise.

What I find truly interesting is that Bethesda can make a very immersive and compelling gameworld and [censored] story and quests.

While Obsidian can make immersive story and quests and [censored] gameworlds.

Granted Obsidian did it under many more constraints.


Oh hell I ranted sorry.


It is very strange/difficult to be a fan of this series overall.

How could you watch the video agree with it and then say nerf anything perk related?:/

The whole po int is that perks were always supposed to be different from skills.


Perks should be game changers not optimal or required choices.

Well that's his opinion, I actually really like the new system.

I did too first go round. Really though the perks don't have much meaning anymore.

It becomes more apparent when you start to design limited rp builds.

Also as a great example the whole luck/crit/vats thing.

Seriously who thought it was a good idea to make luck and crits completely vats dependant? No vats playthroughs have been insanely popular since fo3 released.

In my opinion, the new system works better than the old system in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I like that there is more emphasis on the SPECIAL stats themselves instead of them acting as meager skill boosts as they were in the previous two games. Just look at Charisma, Speech, and Barter in 3 and NV. All Charisma did was provide a slight boost to the two skills, meaning that players could set Charisma at 1 (which many have done) and still have the ability to boost the Speech and Barter skills to 100. It also didn't help that skill boosts did not provide any effects if they pushed skills over 100. Basically, those games made skills and stats feel more like two different systems without any real synergy between them.

In Fallout 4 however, SPECIAL stats are what players have to focus on to build the type of characters they want. If you want a character that is great at accurate shooting at long range, focus on Perception. Want a character who can use his charm to get what he wants? Then you have to actually invest in Charisma to succeed. Without traditional skills, stats are no longer put on the back burner. Even though the new system makes SPECIAL stats more significant, it stills doesn't come without its flaws.

My only real issues with this new system are the usefulness and placement of certain perks on the chart. There are some perks that are blatantly more effective than others. Some of them at lower ranks are actually better than those farther down the chart. Low level perks such as Rifleman, Medic, Commando, Life Giver, and Scrapper tend to be more useful than many of the higher leveled one. Even though options like Ghoulish, and Basher are ranked higher than most perks, they are arguably less significant on gameplay than other perks.

Agree with this to some extend. I'm not a huge fan of the ES skill system but rather prefer the FO3 system where you get to put points toward each of them, like in old school RPGs. It would need a serious revamp and function much better than it does in FO3, of course, but the principle behind it is what skills should be in an RPG.

Totally agree that less and more interesting perks would be so much nicer and closer to canon for the FO series.

More like a Synths problem.

Now are we talking. Everything in this game seems to me radically simplier than in NV , not even mentioning the real Fallouts made by BI. This game system looks more like from some RPG tabletop dungeon generating game like Legend of Drizd or something. It isn't bad but it doesn't fit in 100+ RPG openworld game. Guy in video is also right about "boreness" of perks.

I also mis the traits from the game. Trait points player from the begining of game and helps to better roleplaying. But that's another problem in F4. Roleplaying is totaly cut off game. You allways run, every quest ends with shooting the nhell out of enemies and so on. So in the matter of fact it isn't tha game system problem or perk problem. This system is good for open world shooter which Fallout 4 is. It is not real RPG at all.

Not sure I want to play that game unless the molerats taking down my lvl 50 character number in the hundreds; and even then a few well placed Molotovs should handle them...

that is simple not true, and tired of ppl complain about the simpler system of Fo4 when they only real different between old system and new system is 4 level vs 100 point that only meter after 25.

Really the new system isnt much simpler that the old one, is more, the new system make u be careful to what u choose since each perk have a use now.

Some ppl said that on Fo3 or NV u will have issue with Deathclaw at end levels and that is simple not true any Deathclaw could be 1 shoot when u where max level on 3 and NV, is more NV add new ememies for Max level that only work and bullet sponge like the White Rad scorpion.

Now are the perks alternative to skills. But they're supposed to be an addition, as a video guy said, "the game benders" and definitely not alternative. So, the system is simplified.

This new system tries to be a skills in diablo 2 but it fails because it boosts you abilities instead of giving you options.

the system isnt simplefied is change that is the point. Both system can be compare to a point but at the same time they cant bc one is to replace the other. Most of the perk we get on the new system are simple the skill from the old one.

I can undestand ppl miss that "extra" perk u get every 2 levels ( that work as a extra buff) but that was replace on the new system with magazines, since now magazines work as boosters. (there are alot more magazines that previews games)

I like the system. It lets you play the game the way you want, and you can change your focus without starting an entirely new character just by changing which perks you pick.

And complaining about being overpowered at levels 40+ is unfair.

Me too. I think it's brilliant.

It′s an opinion, and would the lovers of the new system really miss the new system if a fallout 5 would go back to the old system if it was - as you try to explain to me - was just the "same" with just another distribution type?

This type of discussion is hard for me cause saying something got "simplified" is just the gentle version of "dumbed down", and if dumbed down is said it would defame a whole group of players into beeing to lazy or just incapable to act with a bit more complicated system. And i am really trying to avoid that.

There are whole countries that mostly use cars with manual shifting while other countries are filled up with car drivers using automatic shifting.

Don′t you think both have their right to get what they want? For me the system smells like a giant loss of control of what i want to do with my character.

If they system is just an easy transform, why didn′t bethesda simply add a display/function/option to view my skills/stats/perks in classic/ modern view and change them there?

Cause it is not.

Yeah thats probably going a little too far. Me going for too much emphasis there

That being said a Molotov's damage output shouldnt change just because you invested skills in explosives. Your explosives skill should instead allow you to place it better right between the eyes, or perform unique 'situational' actions that improve your explosive skill but still requires some form of input from you as a player. Arguably it could increase damage by improving how well you craft the Molotov, and I would honestly respect the system more if that was the rational, but its not, cause Molotovs you pick up of dead bodies will also deliver the damage boosts granted by your explosive skill.

I dont think anyone is arguing with the 25,50,75,100 point system from previous games, it is the missing perk system which provided unique methods of approaching certain actions. By folding it all into one system, as the guy in the vid says, you are in some way falling behind compared to enemies who level up, meaning you now have to invest in skills which improve your damage output. It is probably the case that this is not true on lower difficulties, but on Survival you cant, or at least probably wouldnt, go spending your first 20 or so levels on Bartering skills...

The new system also results in many boring perks. Take three out of the Charisma tree, all are essentially the same skill... animal friend. I can see why this is the case, all three folded into one perk would probably be OP as fudge! However, where is the actual charisma skills which confer onto you advantages in coversations? Heck even Lady Killer/Black Widow no longer does what it used to which was provide you unique dialogue options, now instead it increases you chance of success in conversations with the opposite gender...

Having watched a few more vids on that guys chanel I would recommend watching his New Vegas let's play. You immediately see how he puts thought into his build, and this may not have been the case for you, but for me I never think about build and rather choose whatever I need whenever I need it, cause a few levels later I can correct any mistakes. Previously, a wasted number of skills or perks was potentially damaging in the long-term.

As you said. Skills and Perks - now, only perks. Uniting two different aspects of your character into one is simplyfiing. I read a good idea for perk in this thread and that's shooting thrown granades in air with VATS. This is what perks should do and not just give you 10% more dmg, thats rubbish. Perks should be obtained through skills because only if you are good at something, you can make these "life hacks"- perks. Not otherwise. As I said, this is system for openworld RPG. System used in F4 is for tabletom dungeon skirmish game.

See, I see that as an argument of semantics. Why not see the increase of damage from investment in the explosive skill as exactly that? The more you invest in explosives, the better you get at applying them; the in game affect of which is to increase the damage output. This carries through to all the skills, the more you invest in Riflemen, the more accurate your shots become etc...