One idea I had is that the amount of points you can put into a skill should be determined by your SPECIAL stats. For instance, if you have a Charisma of 5, then the Speech and Barter skills can only go up to 50. The problem with the system in 3 and NV was that stats and skills had no real synergy with each other. SPECIALs were only good for providing slight boosts to skills, which is why people could get away with having Charisma at 1 and Speech/Barter at 100. By making skill points reliant on stats, SPECIALs still have relevance with a skill system in place.

Because that would lack in imersion.

Applying would require dexterity that was turned into agility somewhen, that would be a seperate stat in rpg′s relating do different skills/perks again.

In the previous Fallouts perks where also multi-linked. Black Widow for example changed my damage (to a specific human gender) as well as my dialogue options cause we know the chosen gender better and can talk to them better as well as i know their body weakspots better.

Torak has the right of it. All the way back to classic D&D, hit points have been abstractions and they continue to be so in this game. There is a reason you can auto-kill a sleeping enemy with Sandman - because the amount of damage a body can take is a finite thing. Two bullets, properly applied, will kill almost anyone but in gameplay we abstract both damage done as experience grows and damage received as levels/perks increase. You get more hit points as you level up to stand-in for your experience in combat at turning those killing blows into grazes or flesh wounds - leaning a bit that way, maneuvering to take the hit on a stronger piece of armor, that kind of thing. Similarly, damage increases represent to ability to counter these types of moves by an opponent and get your weapon to do its best damage in spite of the opponent's best efforts. (Also part of the reason we get Sneak bonuses to damage..)

I see your point here, and I understand the mindset behind Bethesda in doing this, but the problem is the game never pushes you as a player to think about your actions and use strategy in approaching different scenarios. The higher difficulty becomes the more a skill which bolsters damage becomes essential, and (or at least in my case) survival mode necessitates skills like Rifleman and Gunslinger over perks like Local Leader, but not for the right reasons. Instead you are taking those perks to deal back the extra-damage the enemy is going to deal to you.

As said before I know this system might not be enjoyed by others, but in my eyes I would rather Rifleman and Gunslinger provided you with abilities not previously possible which builds up your tactical arsenal and thus allows you to approach a situation from a different angle...

You going up against 100 molerats but your explosive skill is low? Well you can TRY to light up your molotov and throw it accurately to take a bunch out in time, but if you have invested points in explosives then you are going to benefit from being able to light up the cloth faster, and throw that molotov faster and more accurately. If you dont have explosives checked then you are going to need to approach that horde using your head and being careful, and ideally using your build to your advantage. Ofcourse even writing this I can imagine a balanced system using this method is difficult to develop, but I am sure Bethesda of all studios can do it.

EDIT:

I understand that, and as said above I am not saying this system is rubbish (as in the Skills = Damage boost only, the FO4 system I do not personally like). That being said I think computer games are capable of so much more than what was possible in the past (maybe not old school D&D board games where your imagination is essentially the limit), and are capable of delivering it in a visual format not previously possible. As such I think its fair that these sorts of systems should (not going to say 'need', its a video game after all) to evolve to push those new technical limits and deliver a new roleplay experience not previously possible.

Yeah, like I said, it would need to be revamped. Max skill limits relative to your SPECIAL would be a good start, and then also a sliding scale for the use of skills instead of the odd 25/50/75/100 thresholds. It should just get increasingly harder and not be automatic success when you hit the threshold. Looking back to some of the great old RPGs that are still out there would be smart.

How so? Why would getting a perk which has the in game affect of making your explosives do more damage cause an immersion break when you imagine that the perk has made you better at applying said explosives?

This immersion word is getting bandied around far too often, and used in ways that break my forum emershun.

As I see it the Perks are an extension of the SPECIAL. You have the choice, at Perk time, to put your one point into either a SPECIAL or a Perk. The best of both world, as I see it.

For example Speech, which I am sadly lacking in, due to my very low Charisma, and judging by others who were in a similar situation to me and managed to persuade completely different results to me, by Speech.

The system worked fine, and I got the bad result that I deserved to get. If I want better Speech then had better get a better Charisma……. or use a Charisma booster.

But I would rather try that than putting/wasting five whole points into Charisma, when in my view those points would be such a greater asset elsewhere.

I do like the whole system, it graduates the speed of the player’s development in any specific area, whereas before you could easily become too over-powerful in areas. Also, that there are other ways to achieve the objective, is no bad thing, at least it allows us to use our brains to figure out a different way. Great game, a masterpiece, smile.

I like it, wish some of the redundant perks were gone though, like why are chemist and party animal separate? its all addictive poison to me.

Bethesda's goal of late, by nixing attributes in Elder Scrolls and skills in Fallout, is to roll the character system up into one big fat layer. I dunno, I like it that way; less cluttered, and things are better organized according to their value. You can scream "dumbing down" all you want but the fact of the matter is that for everything they've done, the systems have been been adding more options, not less. Only a few things have ever been straight up removed (spears from Morrowind, non-Charisma stat checks in dialog - I'll kvetch about these too) - everything else has just been reorganized in a way that better reflects it's significance in the system.

Another shift in Bethesda's games has been from character creation to character development. In the older games, you'd make all the important decisions at the start of the game - and those would define how your character would progress throughout the entire game. Now your choices at the start are more loosely defined, and you decide how you want to play and what you become as you play the game. Fallout 4 even adds a layer of nonlinearity to character development, with perks getting SPECIAL requirements - extra ranks still fit into classic RPG progression, though. (I liken the weapon type traits in Fallout 4 to the mastery perks you'd get from skills in Oblivion).

Frankly, leveling up is just more fun in Skyrim and Fallout 4, compared to the older games.

On "boring" perks: I'd argue Fallout 4 has as many or more interesting perks (let's assume "interesting" means perks that add new ways to interact with the world, or opens up new strategies, since trying to define interesting for perks is mostly pointless) as New Vegas, rolled into ranks of perks. Not to mention Bethesda only got the idea of skill-boosting perks (arguably the most boring and useless perks in Fallout 3) from the older Fallouts they used as a model. (certainly not the only games with a perk system that included perks that only boost skills in other areas)

That's ALL I build and run several characters at once and have literally no idea what you mean. I guess we'll agree to disagree but I'll be having fun and be satisfied. Not because I'm easy to satisfy, I'm actually really picky and lose interest in most systems really fast but this allows me to do what I like.

a bit more quirky perks would be cool that develop your character really unique....but people will always go for the min-max perks... i liked the approach in new vegas where you didnt even know what kind of perks you could get until you got there

I don't think this can be overstated. The new methods allow you to build your character as you go rather than having to decide everything at character creation. You're not "locked in" to a particular play style because you started that way. Let's face it: the percentage of players who will go onto a message board for additional info or even play multiple characters is pretty low. Most people will play the game through one time with one character. They won't have the advantage of starting over with the knowledge to craft the "perfect" character from the very start, because they don't want to sacrifice a couple hundred hours of time already invested in their first character. If, for example, they decide that they REALLY like using chems and want to pursue those perks, or maybe they lucked into a really good rifle early and find that they like sniping but didn't start with enough Perception for a 'pure' sniper build.

So you might say it's been "dumbed down" because it's just easier to build a good character that is playable through the end-game without backing yourself into a corner. But what might be called "dumbed down" I call "more fun." Not to mention it feels like a more organic and natural method of character development because it doesn't require extensive metagame knowledge to be successful.

bethesda went for more streamlined

more streamlined rpg system - nothing mutually exclusive, everybody can everything with little differentiation

same with the quests - nothing mutually exclusive, no different outcomes one way only....

in the past games at least had the decency to give you the illusion of choice... im wondering why bethesda bothered to record all this voice acting - it just a waste of time in such a streamlined game

i still hugely enjoy fallout 4 BUT if bethesda games get anymore dumb down, streamlined and straight forward - im out

i think will in his video decscibes it best when he calles the perk system lack of choice...

lack of choice - i think A LOT of fallout 4 systems can be described this way, not sure if this good for an open world rpg

Because you are maybe a player that does not relate his personal experience on something like this? Don′t only think about yourself, other players might need this feeling.

Applying an explosive is something i do with my hands and fingers, not only with my knowledge how to let it explode bigger. An agility of 1 would mean that you are able to move your bodyparts like a rotten threepwood, no explosive perk would allow you to suddenly turn into a clock-mechanican. It would have to relate on the explosive skill and agility at last to get such a perk running.

And that is exactly the problem. It allows you to do EVERYTHING what you like in one playthrough instead of limiting you. Sure, you could try to limit yourself, but then if you play the game on a new start with different skills but then you will run into the next problem: you will at some close point realize that it did not really make any difference. It REALLY makes no difference.

Not beeing able to talk to a specific person makes no difference in the result. Not beeing able to pick a lock or not makes NO difference. Not beeing able to hack a computer makes NO difference. And not beeing able to build better settlements makes no difference.

And about the building and settlement skills/perks:

I tried to get trading running for my settlements with diamond city but for some reason nobody knows there that i build up 10 giant settlements with laser guns on their heads. I tried to find some scientists for my settlements for to create me better weapons. For some reason no available scientist has any option like this. The settlements are timesinks, they don′t give you a real efford beside yourself feeling gread building stuff for no reason. They don′t interact with the game itself, they are just fun-cells (for persons that like sims) but have no real reason at all.

The only difference is when you skill your preferred weapon to +100% damage, the rest has only a tiny cosmetic, virtual affect on the gameworld, but nothing that really changes anything.

Couldn't agree more with the video.

Hopefully for TES6 they make perks more interesting, and let damage come from the actual skill.

Not necessarily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAqihb8DIzU You are taking a far too pedantic look into the game

You compare Fallout 4 with a poor boy with cut off/disabled arms? I can′t find a smiley that describes my confusion level..

Players have been complaining how small the games are and how the level cap worked as examples. You finish the game pretty "fast" (individual point of views of course). FO 4 bring up something new, pretty huge map, alot of skills and attributes (Special) to choose and no level cap. There are alot of skills you don't need to choose, because other items etc do the same thing, but you need to choose the uneeded ones to be able to pick something you like. I don't see the reason why you use pistols on deathclaws when one shot from missile launcher do the job so all pistol skills do not add something new. It's common sense you will use proper "tools" against "problem". You get legendary things without doing anything, how to create legendary should be based on skills. Why do I need to pick "sun heals radiation", when I can use hazmatsuit or use chems.

There are several factions to join, but as far as I can see most of them have downsides and upsides so choose one of them doesn't really matter, because you haven't achieved anything. If you want to play as a "saint" - good one, none factions do suits you. If you going to play "evil" - bad, none factions can give you what you want, because some of their politics are good intentions for the peoples of commonwealth. Even I did not do any last part of MQ, I did read the questslines for all factions and today none of the factions do suits me.

What I miss in FO is a common enemy we had in TES, where we had different factions who had in mind to defeat a very strong enemy.

I really like the new leveling system compared to F3 and FNV. I have yet to become master of all skills before finishing any of my characters so far. I just wish that they had more uses for the perks to solve quests and to generate new outcomes and situations in the game but that is a tall order especially with voice acting being introduced.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas both had the same two issues: first, the Skill system almost completely overshadowed the SPECIAL system, and second, the Skill system didn't give anywhere near as much of a boost to your capabilities as it made you feel like you were getting. The Fallout 4 system solves both issues rather well.


That said, I do agree that there are a number of boring perks. The damage boosting perks, the Basher perk, and the defense boosting perks are all perfect examples of these. It would be great if those perks were removed and the game balanced around just the weapons and armor mods, and the perks themselves replaced with something more interesting. And no, I don't have any ideas for what they could be replaced with.

I guess if allows you to do everything by level 200 or so my characters are specialized and one of things I like is you have to specialize to get good at something. I feel like we're playing differnt games.