Now first off let me say I am sure I have not seen everything in the game yet. It is fun. It does feel like it was rushed. I am on PC and have had just about all the issues. I also had to personally fix or find fixes to make my game playable. That being said I have 250 hours in the game already. This is what is bothering me immensely about the lore aspect of it. Feel free to add to refute me in case I just have not stumbled upon little tidbits of info. Just say I am wrong no spoilers please.

First. Most of the Daedra are gone it seems. If we can summon Dremora, I think we could (theoretically) summon anything else. I doubt all the mages in Tamriel forgot how to summon all those Daedra...also why can we not summon more weapons as well?

Second. Next to nothing is mentioned of the Novels. I would think a Zombie creating floating city that cut a swath from Blackmarsh, Morrowind, and Eastern Cyrodiil would still be book worthy or even noteworthy enough to get some conversations started about it somewhere.

Third. No Volkihar vampires or wandering werebeasts. Just static werewolf NPC's and a couple werewolves in scripted dungeons. Skyrim is supposed to be infected with them. To the point a common Nordic tradition is to hang wolfs-bane up around their houses. According to a in-game book called On Lycanthropy I believe.

Fourth. Daedric artifacts are weaker than most items you can find laying around or can forge yourself. Master Smith and Enchanter =/= Daedric Princes correct?

Fifth. The racial abilities and skill bonuses. The misrepresent most of what we knew from previous installments and the Lore. Imperials without Speechcraft bonus? Dunmer without combat abilities or the ability to summon their ancestors ghosts for a chat(Sul did it)? Redguards with magic bonuses? Argonians do not resist poison? Etc. Etc...

Sixth. No Dead Oblivion gates. They opened everywhere! No mention of what happened in Skyrim during that time either.

Seventh. So where is Jyggalag?

Eighth. No mention of the Divine Crusader either. I would think the Knights of the Nine and the return of the Divine Crusader would be a pretty big deal for any Human nation...

Ninth. No mention of several gods since Daggerfell. Ebonarm, Sai etc. etc...why abandon what sounds like good concepts?

Know of anything else? Add it here. I plan on getting a mod made that fixes or alters many of these things to be more Lore friendly.

A lot of thos things you mention are gameplay mechanics. The daedra is simply because the TES are going downward in content and has nothing to do with dissrespecting the lore. Secondly its been 200 years between Oblvioon and Skyrim. Enough time to actually remove the remains from oblivion gates. 150 years if i am not mistaken from the books...so its not really news at the time in SKyrim.

The rest I can agree with a bit. There should definatley be more lore in the games.

Allot of what you mention is related to gameplay and production rather then lore.

The inclusion of specific creatures and specific setpieces costs time. So unless they can be reused or if there is a story to be told they can't always be included.

The effects of certain skills especially at high levels has to do more with making sure the game can be played in a fun manner. For example with Smithing you are investing perks and levels into a skill, it has to provide you with some boost compared to the world or it'd be useless.

Now I can rationalize these using lore, but that's besides the point. Besides, I'd have to think of a new rationalisation with every game.

---

Some things I do want to comment on:

2. I haven't done the Companions yet but I've heard it involves weres.

4. Depending on the artefact the prince hands out, most of them were not created by the Daedric Princes. When you are a legendary smith and enchanter, you may even be the creator of those person_name-item_name artifacts.

7. That was you going crazy. Or alternatively, Jyg knows what will happen and is not bothering.



Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'more' and 'lore'.

I think that over all they did a good job. There are tons of little touches of Nordic culture that makes sense to be there. There are serious politics, shades of gray, sources written with bias. The world mostly responds to the return of the Dragons the war between the Empire and Stormcloacks. There weren't that many references to past games, but good riddance, I do think those would be out of place.

I'd say they don't take it quite as serious as their fans, save for a few choice vocal devs. Staying true to the lore is what I'd expect, otherwise why bother creating it, but practicality and cash comes before the lore on Beth's priority list.

Edited for length: Ninja'd.

Sure. But Bethesda is not going to partition the resources so that they can include Golden Saints, Dark Seducers, Hungers, Aurorans, Clannfear, Scamps, Daedroths, Ogrims, Winged Twilights, Morphoids, etc, etc; when they aren't important to any of the major plot lines of the game. They include a few to keep up the conjuration school (various Atronachs, various Dremora) but this isn't a game that heavily features the role of the daedra (as Oblivion and, to a lesser extent, Morrowind did). So they put their time (wisely) into other things.



There are vague references made to the novels, and much of the lore introduced in them has been carried through. Bethesda doesn't want to spoil the books for the player though. Many people who are just being introduced to the Elder Scrolls wouldn't appreciate that very much.



There are Volkihar vampires. I see Vigilants of Stendarr, and sometimes rogue mages, fighting them along the road every so often. Now, Bethesda didn't put the kind of attention to their implementation as Immortal Blood might have called for (living in lakes, reaching up through the ice, etc), but then again Bethesda had to make the decision on how much manpower and time they wanted to spend trying to implement vampires who could reach through sheets of ice (probably impossible for this engine).



I didn't think so. Many artifacts had unique effects that couldn't be duplicated by any generated or created artifact. I also found that they had a much longer shelf life than normal artifacts. I received a Mace of Molag Bal early on, and it was the strongest weapon I owned until I finally picked up Dragonbane in my lvl 40s. It remained my second strongest melee weapon, and I couldn't bear to toss it aside because its triple-enchantment was so useful and better than anything I could produce, even if I could create a weapon that soul-trapped for longer, or drained more stamina or magic. Plus, it was the coolest mace in the game. Hands down.




Some of these were indeed odd, but I think it was an attempt to rebalance the races better, since the balance was so broken in Oblivion. Personally, though, I don't think racial bonuses are really a part of lore. Lore almost never speaks of them, except for the more obvious ones (Argonian water-breathing).



Meh, I'll overlook it. It would have been a nice touch, and wouldn't have been a resource-hog for the developers. But Skyrim needs its own feel, and doesn't need to be constantly reminding the player that "THIS IS OBLIVION 2!" Plus, its 200 years later. I don't suppose the Gates were very stable, so I suspect most would have eventually deteriorated or washed away so as to leave little evidence of their existence.



See Lady Nerevar's theory on the subject of mantling Arden Sul in the Shivering Isles. Although it was written long before Skyrim, it basically accounts for why we wouldn't see Jyggalag in Skyrim.



Mainly a event of importance to Cyrodiil, but not to Skyrim. I might assume they played a large part in the war against the Dominion, though we can't be sure. There is mention of them, though. The first book that comes to mind is the "Brief Timeline of the Third Era" or some such. It is the very last entry.



There's actually another thread on this topic right now. They're basically minor spirits/gods/heroes that have strong regional followings but are not widely acknowledged.



Anybody remember the Witch Queen of Whiterun? Remember how Whiterun was really poor at the time of Oblivion, and that the Pocket Guide's author skeptically remarked on how her magic had apparently not helped much at all with Whiterun's problems? WELL GUESS WHAT, WHITERUN IS THE RICHEST CITY IN SKYRIM NOW, [CENSORED] YEAH! GUESS THE WITCH QUEEN TURNED THINGS AROUND AFTER ALL, IMPERIAL DOUBTERS!

I haven't come across mention of her yet, however.

Just because it's in the lore doesn't mean you have to find it in-game. There's no room for all of that.

I think it's a sad truth that Morrowind's time has gone, and it's become unfeasible to make a game like that again. I saw Morrowind more than a video game, it was an interactive novel, non-linear and almost unending, and that's why I loved it more than anything.

1. The end of the Dragonfires (whether they were ceremonial or not) or more importantly, the Amulet of Kings supposedly banished all Daedra from willingly entering Mundus. Since summoning Daedra doesn't really count as this, well... Bethesda isn't really clear on what 'willingly' means. Summoning beast Daedra would really be their only purpose, as there is no way the player could encounter them naturally in the environment (think Daedric Ruins in Morrowind).

2. Titus Mede's descendant is Emperor. Otherwise I don't think Umbriel is that important to the people of Skyrim nearly 2 centuries later, besides Red Mountain's destruction.

3. Bethesda really messed this up. No storyline involving vampires or werewolves besides the Companions, which was very dull and uninteresting.

4. They can be improved like other weapons.

5. Personally I don't think they were very useful. Ancestor Ghost was a 30 second damage sponge in Oblivion.

6. One would think that after 200 years the landscape would have changed or Vigilants would have destroyed their remains to avoid worship of them.

7. The (now) weakest Prince, and uncaring about Mundus.

8. The Divine Crusader was primarily a Nedic (Cyrodiilic) hero. The Nords, therefore, would be less inclined to revere him than the Imperials.

9. Hammerfall and High Rock don't play that large of a role in Skyrim.

I think some more Redguard storyline would be nice. It's very skimpy as of now.

This is why I hate voice-acting and high-end graphics. Why has the bestiary been growing smaller sense daggerfall? Because it takes so much more time to create a new monster nowadays. Why so little dialog (esp in OB)? VA.

I don't feel that Skyrim lacks lore, but rather -- and worse, perhaps -- that it's rich in the lore of a fundamentally very different fantasy setting [to Morrowind's]. I'm aware that Skyrim is set in a different region altogether, and that the entire world has moved on two centuries, but it's a lot more than that.

Maybe it's just that Morrowind happened to explore and successfully capture the more abstract and high-fantasy aspects of TES lore (the Tribunal, Lorkhan, Daedra, etc), while Skyrim feels like "men fighting men"; the dragons aren't the dragon-shaped attendant spirits of a schizophrenic time god, but flying-lizards-who-once-ruled-men; the temples feel like sparse D&D healing-houses to non-entities in place of the potent, organised, sinister presence of the Tribunal Temple; the larger-than-life heroes and villains of the Nerevarine prophecy and all that led to it are replaced by the stale kings and generals and politicians of mankind (and the transparent Thalmor), and a mean little civil war with no great events to remember it for, nor complex and sympathetic characters behind its history.

Skyrim's a wonderful game in some ways, but it feels like it's part of a wider setting that just isn't The Elder Scrolls, but instead something very finite and human with a beginning and an end for all to see and understand. It could be that its lore is a huge success in this way, and I simply don't happen to like this aspect or interpretation of the setting.

Skyrim has lots of lore: but it's not lore that feels familiar, fantastical, mythic, or particularly interesting to me.



[rant mode off]

This is true but I feel like a small nod to some things is necessary,. Also I am of the Opinion they should have passed on the 11/11/11 release date and gave the game more polish and tuning. But that is a different story.

While true they should recognize that certain creatures are fundamental for many fans to relate to the game as an Elder Scroll game. Like Scamps. I am not saying they should have all of the various Daedra but a Dremora and some Atronachs is pretty thin. Especially considering the number of things you could summon in previous games, and there is no justification for it imo. There were tons of things on their priority list as 'ghost features'. Meaning they hardly are even present in the game even though they espoused these features quite a bit. The economy system is weak and hardly even noticeable. The jobs you can do are not enjoyable in the slightest and frankly completely uninteresting. Marriage is a joke with no real feel to it at all. Radiant Story is kind of weak as well. Infinite incredibly boring and unrewarding quests. 70 voice actors and well frankly that was kind of horrible. I still recognize multiple voices and many of these voice actors did a horrible job. Dead pan voices abound. All these features were hyped and were quite short of the bar they seemed to be setting. I feel like they spent quite a bit of time and effort on these things and it kind of was a waste. They could have spent their time elsewhere to better effect. I have heard little praise on any of these features.

Well they failed at that two. Destruction is boring and tedious at high levels with very little damage output. If they had made those spells scale up with you as you leveled your destruction skill it would have been better.

I just find it funny that we can create weapons and armor that are much better by a wide margin than the Daedric artifacts. Not even using exploits to a fault either. These weapons do not often scale well. A dwarven sword will outperform one of them in damage very quickly.


As is expected but I did not expect it to be as barebones as it was. Lots of new stuff which is good but no justification is given for some of the other things.


Yes but they gave too few. That is the problem I think. Where do we draw the line on what is acceptable? I mean I can see not having the Dark Seducers, Golden Saints, Hungers, and such. But Clannfears, Daedroth, Scamps, and maybe one or two more seem like is all that is needed for a sufficient amount of summonable critters.

Mentioning a flying city could be done in any number of ways that gives almost no spoilers for the books. That justification is weak, no offense.


I have seen vigilants and I have seen Vampires. Those are not the Volkihar. They are cyrodillic. Of course I could have easily missed some. Do they look like frost/icy vampires? Not that I expect the whole pull people through ice thing, that requires a lot of extra coding, but some different aesthetics that make them seem cold would have been appropriate, those Frost mother wisp things could easily have been tweaked to this effect, those would have been goof volkihar imo.

That is the strong-point of the artifacts. They are unique. But they still are quickly overpowered by blander weapons that make the only draw to use the artifacts aesthetics and the unique effects.

Bah Ignore that one. I am just upset the Dunmer are not combative when they are supposed to be Spellswords of some renown for thousands of years. The racials are still poorly balanced imo though. Nords and Dunmer have a clear advantage against dragons. Orcs have a very powerful racial power and all the 50% regenerative powers are useless for the most part. I wish they made the powers more useful and kept them balanced instead. I proposed a replacer for a mod http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1305500-better-racial-abilities/page__p__19640723__fromsearch__1#entry19640723. It is in the works. I felt like those were much funner. I am sure they have balance issues still but I came up with that in 10 minutes or so.

All it would take is a small nod to the older games. Like one or two destroyed and weathered Oblivion gates. I think most people who played the previous game would appreciate that quite a bit to show that the Crisis was widespread. Not a big issue but I felt it still deserved mentioning.

Forgot about that. Actually read it before. Still would have liked to hear something about what happened.

I don't think it was only a big deal for Cyrodiil. It was a big deal for all of the Nedic people of that time I would think. Besides if they worship Shezzar would not a Shezzarine be a big deal? If that is what we were in Oblivion. Pelinal's successor. Regardless of that little bit which I am probably wrong about in of itself a resurgence of the Knighthood should get some mention.


Not all of it. Just some important major events getting some recognition.


Well that is voice acting for you. I think I would prefer it Morrowind style. And I am not a devoted Morrowind fan. I am 21 and grew up with voice acting in the majoity of my games. if I got more lore and more in-depth plot-lines I would love it. However not everyone who plays games like to read so I can accept this trade off. If only the voice acting did a good job!


That stopped gates from opening. Not people from binding Daedra to Nirn. Unbound daedra in Winterhold anyone?

We still talk about Vietnam even though WW2 and the dropping of nuclear bombs only occurred about 20 years prior to that. Same principle I think. All I would expect is that there would be brief mention of a floating city and how crazy it much have been to see it or something.

I am sure many vamp and werewolf fans were disappointed. I disliked the companion questline quite a bit.

Not to the same extent. So they quickly are outperformed. The only saving graces of them are the aesthetics and unique enchants.

Wrong direction I think though. If it was weak make it level with you up to a certain point to maintain its usefulness. If it is not great do not toss it away, fix and improve it!

Maybe. But they do not mention that directly. Besides they were a monument in one city on the novels I believe. Could easily have been a source of pride for some people as a reminder of their survival. Or just as easily a reminder of pain i suppose.

We do not know this. He once was the most powerful or rather feared Daedric Prince but then in following with the whole duality thing he got split.

They are neighbors. Some influx of trade and culture should be fairly prominent. Not a big deal though. Would have been nice to hear one of the Alik'r mention them though.

Yes it was. What is there is okay though.


There seem to be fewer monsters in Skyim. Can we have a side by side comparison if anyone has already done so?

Not having Skyrim yet, I don't know the lore influence on it aside from some lore aspects that I know were not included. However, I myself would have loved to see some ancient Oblivion gates around as well as some references to others games. I can only hope to feel the cultural differences between regions when I get Skyrim.

Yes. You're not asking for lore, you're asking for gameplay (which is related, but not identical). The lack of Golden Saints in Skyrim didn't retcon the existance of Golden Saints - they just didn't matter at all for the story of Skyrim. When you look at any lore that was directly related to Skyrim -- the Wolf Queen, Reachmen, Hjalti, mother-loving painted cows for love's sake -- it's all there in some way. Same thing with Jyggylag and the Divine Crusader and Oblivion gates.

What Beth did in Skyrim (and in Morrowind) is adress the general feel of the lore, and highlight choice parts. Being "lore friendly" doesn't mean including everything that was ever mentioned in lore.


It's been 200 years. How often do we talk of the war of 1812 outside of history class (and even then)? Would it have been nice to hear about what happened? Sure, but it's hardly a major omission.


Reabsorbed into Sheogorath.


Not really. He gathered some artifacts and reformed a knightly order, and then likely disappeared to become Sheogorath. Even if the order survived 200 years (which I find highly unlikely), it is irrelevant to Skyrim.


Because they are outmoded concepts which weren't mentioned in Battlespire, Redguard, Morrowind, Oblivion, or the novels either? If they exist it is as small local deities - why would they show up in Skyrim? The imperialization of the pantheon is a much more valid concern, but we've argued that elsewhere at length.


It was mentioned at least once that we know of. The "sleeping trees" in giant camps are rumored to have come from Umbriel according to game dialog.

Personally, I wish Beth would just forget about vampires and warewolves all together. Generic fantasy fluff, the development time for which could go towards features that actually matter to the essence of TES. The Companions could have further explored the 500 from which they originated, for instance.



I completely disagree. The vast majority of fans doesn't really know much about lore or care at all, of those that do few care as much as us. We're a very small group of devout fans. I'd say that that the majority of Bethesda takes lore more seriously than the majority of their fans. Bethesda isn't in the same place apropos the lore as us templars, though - they've got games to concern themselves with. That's where the disparities come in.

:shrug:

I disagree in return, but hey, its wonderful to have different takes. The majority of theory and lore based conversations happen here on the forums and amongst fans. We have MK and one or two other devs who even bother to give a look at the lore or interact with the fans and then in some cases make choices that completely ignore established lore, and in some occasions don't really put forth the effort to explain why they did so. Of course I understand their developmental needs to make decisions based on time constraints and technical limitations, but I for one expect to see the things they tell us about when they decide to go to a province. The games in my opinion should stick to the lore they developed for the subject they plan to cover.

Edit: Small or not, I'm certain out of all the TES fans there are more of us who love care about the lore than their developmental team. How many worked on team compared to how many copies sold and people who were drawn into the lore because of the game.

Speaking in very broad terms, it's a natural consequence of having a story evolve over the course of decades that even the same writer will second-guess his own lore. Worse, we aren't dealing with the same writer, we are dealing with multiple writers, who all have their own personal prejudices and talents and takes on the same lore. We will be very involved in the lore here in the lore forum, simply by the very definition of the lore forum, but it is functionally the job of the writers to make up new lore as the story goes along, and that sometimes means contradicting established lore.

To an extent, Bethesda left itself some safety valves by almost never concretely telling the player anything about the physics, always leaving open the possibility that every scrap of lore was not properly understood by the previous speaker, or that they had ulterior motives that would make them want to spin the truth in their own favor.

Further, when you compare this to other forms of collaborative writer lore, such as the dreaded continuity of comic books, Bethesda is actually showing a bit of restraint when it comes to writing all over the works of other artists. We don't have one author trying to make Squirrel Girl beat up a supposedly undefeatable character just to piss off the other author for claiming that character was undefeatable in the first place. Only to start an author-and-fanbase war over whether or not it was a Doombot all along.

As to the specifics, I'm just going to follow up on what some other people like Fiore and Magnum said:
1. They have the models to make the daedra from Oblivion. The graphics and animations would hardly have had to have been updated at all. I don't think re-using the same resources from the last game with some minor updates would have been major work. Rather, I think this is the deliberate fallout of the separation of Nirn from Oblivion. You still have conjuration (as "unwilling" and temporary pulling of daedra into Nirn), as well as temporary summons of Daedric Princes, however, you do not have conjurer dungeons where daedra just chill in a ruin anymore.

Of course, I have run across atronachs just sitting out in the wild, so maybe they have some sort of escape clause. Maybe they have some sort of closer attachment to Nirn that lets them stay more permanently, since there is also that alter underneath the College that lets you summon semi-permanent versions of the creatures, as well.

3. I really don't understand this one... ice-walking vampires would have been completely spectacular as an enemy. I guess the problem is that players would have wanted the ability to do such a thing, and that sort of power would only be workable in scripted situations. Werewolves are completely inexplicable, however. I come across the Cyrodiilic vampire just walking around the open wilds at night, so why can't I come across a wild werewolf? It would hardly have taken any more effort to have random werewolf enemies than it would to put the werewolves in the game in the first place.

4. The daedric weapon and armor artifacts were weak even back in Oblivion, I will point out. Ring that grants Chameleon? So what, I have a set of 5 pieces of +20% chameleon clothing, and I never really used it past the first couple trial dungeons, because it just plain made the game too boring to use. Only the likes of Azura's Star were useful even back in Oblivion. Armor ratings made little difference when it was so easy to armor and enchant up to that 85% cap, anyway. Even the weapon daedric artifacts were of little importance, as they were only barely any more powerful (if more powerful at all) than a basic daedric weapon you could enchant however you saw fit, making them potentially more powerful than the daedric artifacts. Much of this can be said about games that came before Oblivion, as well.

The ultimate problem is that Bethesda doesn't balance its game very well at all, not that they "aren't sticking to lore", but that they don't take the time to put proper scaling boundaries on the powers that players can achieve. In fact, they are actually very, very, (far-too) slowly trying to creep closer to game balance, compared to previous games.

5. The problem with ancestor ghosts was that players would abuse the **** out of ancestor ghosts in ways that would be both horrifically heretical and would likely result in ancestor ghosts never again answering the call of your summons. I remember someone talking about how using a Dunmer born under the sign of the Atronach was the best race/birthsign combination because you could just summon your ancestor ghost, punch it in the face a couple times, then use it to recharge your magicka before soul-trap killing your ancestor's ghost to use to recharge your weapons.

They are just approaching this from the perspective of trying to give the game some balance. Breton 50% Resist Magic with a single ring in the game giving you a +50% Resist Magic for complete magic immunity in Oblivion? Yeah, that's a little overpowered. Meanwhile, Altmer take +50% damage from all three elements, in exchange for just having 50 more magicka? It's no wonder humans are kicking the ass of elves throughout history if the human form of mages are nearly invulnerable to magic, while the elven version takes extra damage from it.

Of course, they can't even accomplish this terribly well... Khajit, for example, have their racial bonuses being Night Eye... in a game that no longer even needs Night Eye because nowhere is dark enough to require light. Then they have a bonus to unarmed damage, when they simultaniously take out the unarmed damage skill, and reduce brawls to little more than just clicking the mouse button as fast as you can while standing directly in front of the enemy. I mean, if my Altmer pure mage can beat an orc chieftain in a bare-knuckle brawl by literally just standing in front of him and spamming right hooks as fast as possible for five straight (boring) minutes while completely ignoring the damage I am taking, with no need for tactics or buffing or any sort of plan other than "punch as fast as possible", something is very, very wrong with the way that brawling works in this game.

So I'm not as troubled by the exact mechanics of racial bonuses changing, at least somewhat - the game's mechanics have changed dramatically, and the racial bonuses have to change to match that.

6. Oblivion gates will probably just crumble to dust if they are not maintained. Besides, what were they made of? Since daedric gear is now just ebony with daedra hearts mixed in, maybe that stuff was just free ebony or daedric equipment just waiting to be mined. Who would leave THAT just sitting out in an open field?

===

EDIT: Man, I was severely ninja'd by taking far too long to write this... This post was written before Albinodunmer's response.

Woah.

I'll say I don't think many of your grievances have anything to do with lore.

Yes, I've witnessed some new people suddenly pop up in the lore forum, with astounding grasps of lore, who come and go like shooting stars.

There are Volkihar vampires, unfortunately. Higher level vampire NPC's are called Volkihar Master or Volkihar ancient. But it doesn't explain why these vampires can go around in daylight looking like the average joe and feed on sleeping people. I don't believe they are the Volkihar at all. There's no way. And as for the weres, I belive you mean the "Canis Root." which is supposed to ward off werebears, not werewolves. And a ingame book in Skyrim mentions this as well: "I had heard the same rumors as everyone else -- that the province of Skyrim was awash in various forms of Lycanthropy. I had studied werewolves for some time, and was keen to see if these rumors of werebears were actually substantiated. They certainly have their traditions for warding off werebears (certain plants and ceremonies), but nobody can attest to even having seen one first-hand, much less possess any sort of artifact. Everyone has a cousin or a friend who saw one once, but when pressed, these stories fall apart. The werewolves of this land are a curious sort. At least the legends of them. Given the Nord flair for bravado, I had expected to see werewolf pelts lining walls in the cities, werewolf heads on pikes, that sort of gaudy show. Instead, few people in civilized society ever mentioned them, and my questions were usually met with nervous stares."

Werewolves are seen and known to exist, but they are rare to a certain degree. Although the loading screen does mention when night falls, werewolves are believed to descent upon the unweary.

As for the Daedric Gates, yeah, its weird we don't find any ruins or remains. But hey, it's an overlooked thing.

What I don't get in regards to werewolves roaming in the wild is this: they did it in Bloodmoon...where if you were a certain level, say 35, youd have a certain percentage of chance to encounter one. Why they couldn't just do a similar method with Skyrim, and place these werewolves in out of the way locations is beyond me. There's no reason why the werewolves should be limited to just the Companions and Hircine's Daedric quest.

EDIT: And on another note: it's sad for me to say this, but new fans=less attention to the other more deeper aspects of the series' lore. The average gamer who's first game is Skyrim would be put off by the amount of talking and not care for any deep lore if Bethesda had put it in. But that also isn't an excuse, because they still could've done it and the average gamer could just skip it so they can be like 'LOLZ I WANA KILL THINGS' while at the same time those of us who like a deep understanding of the world we play in can still benefit from extra bits of lore being included.

Basically, except for the notion that a scamp is somehow iconic of TES games, and must be in a TES game, what you have posted is exactly what I had posted in the "Skyrim General Discussion" forum. I agree with much of this, but I don't think it's a matter of lore that they left such an empty and lazy shell of a marriage system.

Of course, the denizens of one forum and another are quite different, in the General Discussion forum, you get shouted down for just pointing out a flaw in the game at all, no matter how well-reasoned or even if you are prescribing detailed steps wherein you propose to ameliorate the problem. Nope, it's all "whining about this great game" to do anything other than join in a chorus of praise...



I would say that Azura's Star and Wabbajack are actually good models for a daedric artifact, if they are going to continue to be given out. It's always useful because it gives you a completely NEW ability that no enchantment gives you. Artifacts that are just "more powerful versions" of the same crap that other things you can enchant are never really going to feel that special. Daedric Artifacts don't have to stay the same between games - just say that the Daedric Princes either had a few collecting dust in the pantry, made a new one, or decided to alter the old one's powers to suit their peculiarities more faithfully.

Oghma Infinium, for example, I never actually use - 5 skill points are something I can earn the old-fashioned way. Oghma Infinium is something that looks better as a centerpiece in a showcase in my home, hoewver. It's more valuable to me as a trophy than as a source of "forbidden knowledge" that I can gain the non-forbidden way. If you want to make Oghma Infinium into a "forbidden knowledge" tome, just give the player a choice of three Lovecraftian mutations you can gain, like having a tentacle attack or a spell that inflicts area-wide insanity or summon entirely new non-euclidian types of conjurable monsters. Make it feel like I've really made a pact with some sort of Alien Other entity. THAT would make the reward more worth using (or being afraid of using).

I always place a Mark spell in the Lore forum whenever I go to Skyrim General.

Oh shi...

All I can say is that this is Skyrim, not Morrowind. Skyrim is focused on Skyrim, just as Oblivion was focused on Cyrodiil, Morrowind was Vvardenfell, and Daggerfall was the Illiac Bay. It seems to me that what you and many others are really missing is the high fantasy. The last two games are focused on provinces of men, so of course it is going to be a little more 'generic' than Morrowind. If TES V was in Black Marsh or Valenwood, I doubt we would have this conversation come up so often.

Wheezy, before Oblivion, Cyrodiils lore was anything but generic High Fantasy. It was a complete departure from any of its previous established lore so I myself don't buy that argument.

I put generic in quotes because I don't buy it as generic.
I know all about the Imperial Retcon and all that, and I can't say I wasn't a little disappointed as well, but if you want the alien landscapes and politics, I would look to the Mer, not the men.