Dwarf is a human word for Dwemer. Hell, I was disappointed to see humans NOT calling Daedra Demons as Demon is a human word for Daedra.



The only actual difference in combat is that you always hit rather then miss like a blind guy if you aren't proficient with a weapon. Hell, I could hit a man with a dagger and I never used it before on anyone. Every weapon should do at least SOME damage.
Everything is still stats oriented. Hell, blocking an attack won't even protect you from hit, just reduce lost health because it is still ALL stats oriented. If you want to see a real Fantasy combat, play Dark Messiah.

Visa-versa for me. I can't play Oblivion, it just feels too 'easy'. I've still got my youth, so I don't need to worry about family, but I honestly hope they go for the depth of Morrowind, even if it's as easy-to-use as Oblivion.

I hadn't looked at it that way,

Oh you will, young one, you will. :biggrin:

More crticism on Oblivion...what? And I dont think they dumbed Oblivion down, so much as they made it more accesible. Oblivion is not a simple game. Maybe compared to Daggerfall it is, but compared to most games out on the market today, it's pretty complex

I totally agree with you there. I certainly have issues with the depth of Oblivion. My comments above were strictly to point out why fast travel/quest markers are valuable to certain types of players ( NOT necessarily just 'casual' players ).

I agree. Alot of these things that we all nitpick about and say "this is better" or "that is better" can just be added to a toggle menu.

Don't want fast travel? Don't use it.

Don't want a quest compass toggle it off in a menu and use your given directions or notes.
(Funny that the quest compass is determined "unrealistic" by some MW fans yet MW had a minimap lol)

If OB was too easy for you and you were invincible, well you can't complain about that, it had a menu fix. TRY jacking up the difficultly slider and say again that OB is too easy. Dumbed down? Slightly. Too easy? No.

I also think that the drab, alien world vs. the bright world of OB was also probably due to hardware capabilities and the willingness of Bethesda to wow people with the scenery capabilities of a next gen game.

I meant that I agree with you in believing that Skyrim would be nice with the depth of MW and the accessibility of OB.

Let's go devs!

I don't think anybody has overlooked this and this very thread has been made probably 200 + times in the last 5 years.

In my opinion they should keep a lot of the "casual" changes from Oblivion in Skyrim but allow everyone who liked Morrowind more to toggle them off.

-Quest and map markers may stay just allow us to toggle them off
-All cities visible in the beginning , allow us to toggle that off as well
-Fast travel is an interesting one, allow us to toggle it off and instead make use of the Morrowind transportation system and maybe Mark and Recall
... and so on

I agree with this. Also, I guess people just forgot fast travel to anywhere from anywhere was in Daggerfall. (and thank god because you need it) I've never had a problem with it :shrug: As long as they give me a reason to explore I'll ride my horse (and hopefully carriage in Skyrim please) around and be amazed.

Aaand. I don't think any of us have overlooked Oblivion being a launch title. it may get a lot of crap from a lot of the forum users around here but I personally love it, and have spent countless hours playing both Oblivion and Morrowind. (I'm newish to Daggerfall)

I think Oblivion was an amazing game, you have to remember what was around on 360 at the time? Table tennis!

I know some of the hard core fans of Morriwind felt let down by oblivion and it's ideas but it has to be counted as a separate game. It wasn't supposed to be Morrowind 2, the visuals and feel for the game was influenced from the LOR movies around at the time.

I understand that the hard core followers of the series want each game to be better than the last, and want to see it go from strength to strength but I believe 99% of the negativity about oblivion comes from the hard core fans who have such high expectations. That is perfectly fine, you wait 4 years for a game you want it to be amazing. But I think we will see peeps comparing Skyrim the same. I think half of the amazement comes from playing an RPG such as TES for the first time, and for most people Daggerfall and Morrowind will always be closer to their hearts.

Skyrim will have to bring back the 'amazement' factor to win over the die yards and i think it will.

I think partially. Not that MW was quite brown because of hardware limitations, That't totally an art design choice imo, but that Beth was trying to make something bright and punchy to wow people with the nextgen game. Remember, Ob did look good in its day.

I might be able to locate some developer seminars on "game design" particularly in choosing visual design and style, pretty much all of them say you need a unique visual style to make people want to play your game. Pretty much describes OBs style as something to kind of avoid, Well in part anyway, just depends on what you are going for.

OB wasn't that impressive overall in the art design department imo. The art assets themselves is kind of hit and miss. The the art style is a little bland. Though to their credit, there is a very distinct linear improvement in Beths art department. Asset wise F3 is a league beyond OB, while it is hard to judge MW to OB considering the platform difference so I won't judge that, The actual art style did drop off just a little bit in OB. Very slight staleness to it imo. Not crap, just leaning on the mediocre side. SI did something interesting. A few nice things happened there.

Can't wait to see in engine this time. So far there isn't much to go on. But there is some flavor in the trailer.

I tend not to care too much about the specifics of game mechanics. I don't really have strong feelings about whether or not Oblivion was too easy or too streamlined. A lot of these things are easily adjusted with mods to whatever formula floats your boat.
The quest marker was a necessary evil in a world where every NPC wanders around. It makes the whole thing a lot more videogamey (as all the quests are a neatly arranged convenient succession of simple steps, just follow the arrow!), but I think the game would have been too frustrating without it.

The problem for me was more in the world building department. The randomness (caused mostly by the automatic npc/loot system) was too immersion breaking. It shattered the illusion that I was exploring a world that made sense.

The theme is a more difficult issue. Part of me believes that any setting can be made interesting and any story can be told in an engaging way, but some parts of Oblivion (mostly the main quest once you find Martin) were not really either.

I actually answered this question a long time ago, and the OP is for the most part right. I still say to this day that Oblivion was the first true next generation game to come to consoles. To give further insight into why Oblivion came out the way it did is because it was being developed since Morrowind released in 2002. At one point Bethesda was considering making Oblivion for the current generation of consoles and PC at the time (Xbox and possibly PS2), but Todd Howard decided (for the better) that they should push to make a next generation console that sets it far apart from Morrowind. For three years, Bethesda more or less had to guess how the game would work. The hardware didn't exist when they started development, so it was a touch and go process. They only had 6 months of development time with the hardware when the game was finally released, and it was delayed from a Holiday 2005 release. With that considered, there was a lot of content that was probably cut out of the game due to time constraints and other issues (my overall argument for enjoying Morrowind more is because it felt more complete than Oblivion). Overall, Bethesda will still was able to make a revolutionary and satisfactory TES title. Now it's clear Bethesda more than likely wanted to improve their fan base as all developers do, but I do not believe it was the reasoning for the elements that Oblivion lacked. I believe it was a development time issue as stated above first and foremost, because we all know that Bethesda works to develop the best games they possibly can, which is why Oblivion was delayed. I do not believe Skyrim will have these issues, as this new engine was completed a while ago and Skyrim has been in development for years.

Well said sir! :thumbsup: That "wow" factor is precisely why Morrowind is still my favorite. I'll never forget when I first discovered the Sarano Ebony Helm* and thought it was the coolest piece of armor ever! Little did I know what else was in store for me. And not to mention getting lost in Vivec...man. :facepalm:
Pure grade A nostalgia.

Oblivion still gave me that "wow" factor but it was to a lesser extent, partially because Morrowind was not only my introduction to Elder Scrolls, but also to really complex RPG's. With Oblivion I'll never forget being so freaking happy that I could retrieve my arrows and [b]manually]/b] block. Going to paradise, that was incredible! And so much more. I can only hope Skyrim will not only bring back that "wow" factor, but that it will surpass Morrowind as my favorite game of all time.

Edit forget to add my *.
*I've only completed the quest that involves that helm once just to see the story of it. After that I've just kept it on display as a sentimental moment from exploring Vvardenfell

Although I understand the argument (I would guess I'm around your age) I take another view, I don't mind if I only play one game a year as long as it is a good game, my argument is there are many many quick fix games on the market already, and I do play those but I still want games that have depth. The whole of TES IV is tailored for the marker some quest don''t really give directions at all. Also even with the directions for the quests I think an option to turn off the "dungeon locater" would be wise. I enjoy a two hour session of deeper RPGs where it seems not a lot has been achieved I make time as well for it. By that I mean gaming is my main leisure time so I have no control over the TV in the house as I mostly choose to sit in the front room laptop on with head phones.

Also Oblivion's issues run deeper than markers and fast travel, ultimately should those that do have time to play a deep game have to have a series renowned for deep games watered down, surly there are games on the market for the time impaired? I don't have the time I once had I have kids a job and an other half I just sometimes choose to play a game for a few hours knowing I won't get far, I managed last year to finish Darklands (again) Ultima 7 (again) dabbled in some roguelikes and finished GTA IV and CoD III messed about with DA didn't like it that much, thats it and I was happy with that (thats 4 games in the whole year). This year will start with Arena and Daggerfall but my main goal this year is to finish the three ROA and thats it. Can't I have a deep Skyrim TES I'm happy if it takes me ages to complete and I may not get as far in four hours as I might in other games, can't we have RPGs that cater to that, as long as there are games for people like yourself?

As it stands there are huge amount of shorter less deep games, surely one longer more involved game is not too much to ask?

Exactly, the balance is shifting a little bit too much towards casual

I agree that a lot of the amazement factor comes from playing a TES game for the first time. My very first experience was Oblivion and I adore it to death (I do plan on playing Morrowind though since I have heard so many good things about it on here). The only flaw I ever noticed in Oblivion was the fact that after a certain level all the bandits were wearing some of the most rare armor in Tamriel and it broke immersion somewhat for me. Really that is the only thing that I would personally change. I thought everything else was great. Also I never fast travel, nor felt the desire to. I didn't mind that it was there though since other people (like my husband) use it. And if I don't want to use the quest compass (which when I first played the game I did use a lot because everything was so new to me and it really helped), I just put another quest that I am not doing in my journal and problem solved! So I just don't understand those two complaints at all. After coming to these forums and learning more about the lore though, I do wish they had kept Cyrodil a jungle like it is described in the books. A jungle is just as colorful as a forest. So the only things that really bother me it seems are the lore-breaking things.

I'd classify the complains in two categories. The "not good for any game" and the "not good for an elder scrolls game". Every elder scrolls game seems to me very different in it's scope from their predecessors. In this sense IMO Oblivion got attacked for essentially doing the same thing Daggerfall and Morrowind did. So, personally, I don't agree with these complains. It was a different game, with the general structure of elder scrolls (world, levelling system) still in. One may not like the new direction, but it doesn't inherently make Oblivion any less rmjoyable, or any less of an elder scrolls game.

Then there are the complains like level scalling and stuff. These are very valid complains IMO, since they were just badly implemented for any game. And these have little to do with their knowledge of Xbox since they were design decisions. Any perdormance issues (graphics, loading times etc) are bound to be better this time around since they know the platforms better.

One quick thing about the optional "fast travel, map locations etc". If it's optional, it would still need to be implemented in the game correctly. Not just a toggle they slap in there. With the radiant AI, there would have to be a way (through conversations and stuff) to find eg an NPC you're supposed to meet without the compass. That would take some work, since, unlike Morrowind and Daggerfall, the NPC's don't stay in one place.

I'im tempted to say, give us a toggle for written (and expanded) dialogue that helps with this.
But since that isn't going to happen. Let's just say that I for one would greatly enjoy the challenge in finding that person, if it's possible to get some information about his habits. Like he usually eats his meal at "The Roasted Rat" inn or something like that.

I understand your view. For the record, Morrowind IS my all time favorite RPG when everything is taken into consideration. And I agree with you...I didn't like DA much either!

I certainly didn't mean to imply that I want a shorter game. The more depth the better! I also didn't mean to imply that fast travel/map markers should be the *only* way to play. My point was that some of us want the tools to play the game 'more efficiently'.

Personally, I'm hoping for a Morrowind level of scope ( or deeper ) with OPTIONS to tailor gameplay to how the player wants to enjoy the game. I hope we get a toggle to play with or without map markers, or possibly ranged map markers with a general area to find the location. I'd also like a toggle for fast travel.

I think alienating either play style would be a bad design (and business) decision.

Something like that would do pretty nicely, and be realistic IMO. NPC's shouldn't know every other NPC's exact schedule. (well except from the psychic guards. They should know everything )

Not enirely true, Daggerfall had fast travel due to the size of the world, Oblivion was far smaller.

Actually in Dagger fall you had to ask around to find quest NPCs and it was great (even if NPC's move about to different towns it would have still have been great). Seeing how much gets removed it's not enough to say "it was in whatever TES game" without considering the reasons it was implemented. Oblivion could have used Morrowind type fast travel, in fact Daggerfall still had teleport spells due to timed quests, so can we have timed quests and teleport back please


I agree a lot of things could have been toggled quest markers may have been harder to toggle (with the need for better directions) but the other locators could have been. Too be honest these where some of the lesser evils in TES IV and if it had had stunning quest with full on guild interaction, basicly standing out somewhere else I can have gone along with it. My personal problem with TES IV was it was all streamlined back and lacked any depth IMO

And guys I started with Daggerfall and got svcked right in to Morrowind, I like both pretty much equally, and I enjoy the odd game of arena, I don't like Oblivion because to me its a bad game

This bit is very important imo. Modding out fast travel doesn't suddenly remove all the lazy fetch quests that this system seems to have allowed nor does it add in a viable alternative. Same with the compass, without its magic pointy properties quest descriptions and jourrnal entries have to be much better. I really noticed this in FO:NV where there was times when the only way to decipher the answer to a quest was to follow the arrows, same thing with returning to a long ago received quest where the location was mentioned in dialogue but in quest log is the unhelpful "go to".