» Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:36 am I personaly think ES games are ART. Not just an action game where you constantly fight. An actual art. It sure seemed like it in Morrowind, but I didn't feel it in Oblivion. Read the OP CAREFULY and comment only after you've understood it. I myself forgot for a second this thread is not originaly about Fast Travel, and people related it only to fast travel, which was somewhat annoying. People this thread is about making the journey in Skyrim counts. How to expand the experience, how to make a fair in-game system of traveling for both sides who like Oblivion's FT and those who don't. Having a sense of attachment to your character and actually feeling like you're in a world. I think Oblivion has lost the sense of having the JOURNEY, and it IS after all a role playing game.
Now READ the OP carefuly. And comment appropriately. Seriously people, the "Don't like it, don't use it" argument has nothing to do with this thread. If you're using it then you're just trying to annoy people, because this is NOT what this thread is about.
Now READ the OP carefuly. And comment appropriately. Seriously people, the "Don't like it, don't use it" argument has nothing to do with this thread. If you're using it then you're just trying to annoy people, because this is NOT what this thread is about.
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1206875-one-thing-i-think-bethesda-doesnt-get/ to the first thread.
One thing I love about most open-world games is the traveling. I'll give you examples for games that put emphasys on that:
?World of Warcraft
?Shadow of the Colossus
?Icewind-Dale
?Baldure's Gate
?Diablo
?Morrowind
I know, I know, some of them aren't open-world, and that's OK, because they put amphasys on my point. I HATE the walking, and finding the right path just to reach my destination, after hours and hours of searching and tearing my head apart, wanting to bash my head to the window.
But you know what?
After I DO reach my destination I feel rewarded, I feel like I've actually spent my own time being the character and feeling the difficulty that its feeling. Well, kinda... you know, it's not like I'm actually walking through deserts and harsh areas, only sitting in front of the computer trying to figure my way out... I'l give you an example!
In Shadow of the Colossus finding your next destination to your next EPIC battle against a Colossus was ANNOYING LIKE HELL. But man... when I finished this game I felt like this game is the best game EVER, because I felt a feeling of attachment to my character, and I think that's a core foundation of a role playing game: Feeling attached to your character, or feeling like you're the character.
In a role playing game you're supposed to feel some sort of attachment. Sometimes it's there! In Oblivion I felt a huge lack of it. I didn't feel attached to my character AT ALL. Why you ask?
Because I didn't feel like he went through hard times. I've felt like I'm in some sort of a cartoon fantasy game where even the most terrifying creatures and beasts look kinda cute. I'm not saying Oblivion was bad, I'm saying I didn't feel any emotional difficulty what playing it.
My point in the matter is this: The journey DOES COUNT. The journey is as part of the game as any part of the game. Heck, is more a part of the game than combat! Which means it's probably the biggest part of the game, or at least should be.
2 things ruined that for me in Oblivion:
?There was no emotional difficulty while playing Oblivion, it felt like I'm speed running through the world trying to win the contest of how many quests can I finish in the shortest of time. And it wasn't the way I played it. I even usually walked and looked to the sides, to the beautiful views Cyrodiil had to offer me. But it was the way the game itself felt.
?Second on the list, and my biggest issue, is: I don't think Bethesda realizes that fast travel as a teleporting device and not being a part of the gameplay itself is in fact NOT a good thing. 1: Because it takes out a gameplay feature and replaces it with nothing. 2: Because it removes the feeling of attachment from your character, feeling the hardness and the journey your character is going through in a ROLE PLAYING game.
I think why so many people here are considered annoyingly "Morrowind-lovers" is because they have felt what I felt. The journey. Not just the discovery of a new alien place, but the road itself to your destination, annoying and desperating as it was, was setisfying. Morrowind has delivered this feature in the perfect way. Still allowing you to teleport, but in the cost of money, and through ways that actually make sense. While I would personally had prefered there would be no teleportation and we could actually see ourselves sail the seas with boats and ride Silt-Striders, I do think a "Skip" option is best due to the fact that after the 100th time you're seeing it, it would've made you want to commit suicide.
Now don't misunderstand me, I don't think Morrowind's system was balanced, because it doesn't speak to the wider audience and I do realise that. But I think it delivered a fairly good system. Making traveling a gameplay feature is brilliant, and I hated the fact they took it out.
While I do know there's the carriage system, all I can hope for is that we can also use the boats and other traveling options, and that we can use them only through a small fee. For the simplest reason that it adds more gameplay, leaving you with the feeling of attachment to your character because you know what he's going through while he's not teleporting hundreds of miles in 2 seconds, and finaly, it adds another use for gold, which eventually was kinda useless in Oblivion, and you just had piles and piles of it eventually.
By the way, this goes hand in hand with the size of the world. Because I did notice it in skyrim so far, though of course I didn't see most of Skyrim, I know I've seen so little of it. But a game the size of Oblivion with mountains and tons of new features, you would expect to be a little cramped. And I dislike it. Take MERP for example, the middle earch project for Oblivion. With the heightmap it delivered a perfect sense of "You are actually in a world!".
That is people, the real thing I don't think Bethesda gets. It was featured only in Daggerfall. VAST LANDS. I really won't mind having fast travel, but I, personally, would LOVE to see myself traveling through mountains and vast lands, seeing immense mountains in the distance. Bethesda doesn't get that sometimes emptiness is a good thing, and could be GREAT if done properly. MERP did it good, even if it had lots of empty land, I didn't mind traveling it because it offered amazing views for me to look at. And you know what? If sometimes I get tired of just walking and walking and walking, I could always fast travel. But at least make the world big enough so fast travel could be useful. Even though I would prefer that they would've taken Morrowind's fast travel system and improved it, making it more friendly to players nowadays, or at least easier.
EDIT: Just to clarify, this isn't an "Anti-Fast Travel Thread" where "Don't like, don't use it" is valid in. I'm saying easy fast travel and no alternatives like carriages PLUS boats PLUS other methods of traveling takes away the feeling of attachment to your character.
Thanks for reading! I welcome any feedback!
/Dark.
?World of Warcraft
?Shadow of the Colossus
?Icewind-Dale
?Baldure's Gate
?Diablo
?Morrowind
I know, I know, some of them aren't open-world, and that's OK, because they put amphasys on my point. I HATE the walking, and finding the right path just to reach my destination, after hours and hours of searching and tearing my head apart, wanting to bash my head to the window.
But you know what?
After I DO reach my destination I feel rewarded, I feel like I've actually spent my own time being the character and feeling the difficulty that its feeling. Well, kinda... you know, it's not like I'm actually walking through deserts and harsh areas, only sitting in front of the computer trying to figure my way out... I'l give you an example!
In Shadow of the Colossus finding your next destination to your next EPIC battle against a Colossus was ANNOYING LIKE HELL. But man... when I finished this game I felt like this game is the best game EVER, because I felt a feeling of attachment to my character, and I think that's a core foundation of a role playing game: Feeling attached to your character, or feeling like you're the character.
In a role playing game you're supposed to feel some sort of attachment. Sometimes it's there! In Oblivion I felt a huge lack of it. I didn't feel attached to my character AT ALL. Why you ask?
Because I didn't feel like he went through hard times. I've felt like I'm in some sort of a cartoon fantasy game where even the most terrifying creatures and beasts look kinda cute. I'm not saying Oblivion was bad, I'm saying I didn't feel any emotional difficulty what playing it.
My point in the matter is this: The journey DOES COUNT. The journey is as part of the game as any part of the game. Heck, is more a part of the game than combat! Which means it's probably the biggest part of the game, or at least should be.
2 things ruined that for me in Oblivion:
?There was no emotional difficulty while playing Oblivion, it felt like I'm speed running through the world trying to win the contest of how many quests can I finish in the shortest of time. And it wasn't the way I played it. I even usually walked and looked to the sides, to the beautiful views Cyrodiil had to offer me. But it was the way the game itself felt.
?Second on the list, and my biggest issue, is: I don't think Bethesda realizes that fast travel as a teleporting device and not being a part of the gameplay itself is in fact NOT a good thing. 1: Because it takes out a gameplay feature and replaces it with nothing. 2: Because it removes the feeling of attachment from your character, feeling the hardness and the journey your character is going through in a ROLE PLAYING game.
I think why so many people here are considered annoyingly "Morrowind-lovers" is because they have felt what I felt. The journey. Not just the discovery of a new alien place, but the road itself to your destination, annoying and desperating as it was, was setisfying. Morrowind has delivered this feature in the perfect way. Still allowing you to teleport, but in the cost of money, and through ways that actually make sense. While I would personally had prefered there would be no teleportation and we could actually see ourselves sail the seas with boats and ride Silt-Striders, I do think a "Skip" option is best due to the fact that after the 100th time you're seeing it, it would've made you want to commit suicide.
Now don't misunderstand me, I don't think Morrowind's system was balanced, because it doesn't speak to the wider audience and I do realise that. But I think it delivered a fairly good system. Making traveling a gameplay feature is brilliant, and I hated the fact they took it out.
While I do know there's the carriage system, all I can hope for is that we can also use the boats and other traveling options, and that we can use them only through a small fee. For the simplest reason that it adds more gameplay, leaving you with the feeling of attachment to your character because you know what he's going through while he's not teleporting hundreds of miles in 2 seconds, and finaly, it adds another use for gold, which eventually was kinda useless in Oblivion, and you just had piles and piles of it eventually.
By the way, this goes hand in hand with the size of the world. Because I did notice it in skyrim so far, though of course I didn't see most of Skyrim, I know I've seen so little of it. But a game the size of Oblivion with mountains and tons of new features, you would expect to be a little cramped. And I dislike it. Take MERP for example, the middle earch project for Oblivion. With the heightmap it delivered a perfect sense of "You are actually in a world!".
That is people, the real thing I don't think Bethesda gets. It was featured only in Daggerfall. VAST LANDS. I really won't mind having fast travel, but I, personally, would LOVE to see myself traveling through mountains and vast lands, seeing immense mountains in the distance. Bethesda doesn't get that sometimes emptiness is a good thing, and could be GREAT if done properly. MERP did it good, even if it had lots of empty land, I didn't mind traveling it because it offered amazing views for me to look at. And you know what? If sometimes I get tired of just walking and walking and walking, I could always fast travel. But at least make the world big enough so fast travel could be useful. Even though I would prefer that they would've taken Morrowind's fast travel system and improved it, making it more friendly to players nowadays, or at least easier.
EDIT: Just to clarify, this isn't an "Anti-Fast Travel Thread" where "Don't like, don't use it" is valid in. I'm saying easy fast travel and no alternatives like carriages PLUS boats PLUS other methods of traveling takes away the feeling of attachment to your character.
Thanks for reading! I welcome any feedback!
/Dark.
