Skyrim
+Animation ~ The fluid walking/running, jumping, sword movements, ect are all amazing.
+Graphics ~ The look of the game is amazing, from your surroundings, to your character, to objects you find in the world.
+Interesting Story Concept ~ The very bare bones of the story is interesting, but with poor writing in the dialogue, character and faction backgrounds, and investment in the story it falls short.
-Writing ~ Like I mentioned above the writing is just mediocre and makes the amazing gaming experience feel hallow. Also on many occasion the people of Skyrim will treat you as your a blank slate and not the actual race/character you made.
-Bugs/Gltches ~ The amount of bugs/glitches in the game were unacceptable, in no way was it ready to be launched x3 for the PS3 version.

Fallout New Vegas
+Story ~ The initial go find a guy that turns into something so much bigger and wraps you up in a fight for the very future of the Mojave Wasteland making many small and big choices along the way; add in that the factions you meet along the way are all very much so fleshed out.
+Writing ~ From the characters, to the factions, the writing for the game was amazing.
-Graphics ~ They aren't that bad but they are quite dated, especially with using the same stuff from Fallout 3.
-Bugs/Glitches ~ I'm putting the blame on both Obsidian and Bethesda the broken quests, the floating arms, invincible enemies, graphical bugs, ect. There was no excuse to release the game like they did and it was up to the publisher to see that it wasn't ready and delayed the title.

So in conclusion I wish the teams would just mix and match, I'd love to see Obsidian head the writing and Bethesda do the programming and allow themselves enough time to complete the game and to make sure it's actually ready to be shipped. That's just my opinion though.

Edited for formatting and just a better organization of details.

My faith in Bethesda plummeted the moment I realized the trait system of New Vegas makes characters far more unique than the race system of TES ever was.

Agreed. How come people in Skyrim general continuously talk down Obsidian?

I enjoy both games, for different reasons. Does it really have to be this OR that?

Suppressed jealousy? I can't really think of any other reason why people in an Elder Scrolls forum would supposedly talk about them.
It honestly doesn't have to be, but so many people choose to make it like this.

*tear* I love you Longknife...


LK's post is wonderful because it rings true... they've never played a true RPG, a game that delivers on so many levels. Either that, or they're attracted to the "skin deep" franchise TES has become. They're truly terrified of choice and consequence, of their actions having meaningful change on the world. They're not interested in playing multiple playthroughs because they feel entitled to "have it ALL, when I want, where I want".

It's a sad state of affairs, really.

One of the more popular discussions in the Skyrim forums is how to tinker with Kill Cam animations and how awesome the WWE style finishing moves are... /sigh

The problem with the Skyrim General forum is that where in november we saw a lot of biased nay sayers, the boards ar now over flooding, especially in critical threads, with Skyrim supporters.
There is a bunch of biased defenders who will treat any comment you make as though you're attacking their firstborn physically..
They use a lot of empty arguments to defuse critical posts or go into circular argument mode.
And most irritating, they use entitlement in labeling any constructive argument that perhaps Skyrim is not the greatest game ever produced, as Bethesda hate or as people who don't want to see progression.
This kind of attitude is also glaring when people give example of games who use aspects, neglected in skyrim, better. In stead of discussing said elements they are urged to go play those games instead.
Or the "You should roleplay more" argument which they overuse..

It is this same group of people who seem to hold a personal grudge against Obsiddian in general and FO:NV in particular..

The thing which always resurfaces: FO:NV simply is not their cup of tea... and because of that a new FO title should be like Skyrim...
(to be clear their conclusion certainly not mine)

Btw: I've seen several people who seem to think that Bethesda started the franchise with FO3...

Well to be fair...

One popular reason people dislike New Vegas and prefer a game like Skyrim is because they want to write their character's story themselves. For example, Skyrim has several quests where...well as an example, one has a woman asking you to take care of some assassins that are after her for opposing the Thalmor, who are the bad guys no matter who you are. When you meet the assassins, they tell you she's lying and that she supports the thalmor and that's why they're after her. Then you make a decision of who to believe. Regardless of who you support, they just say "thanks!" and that's that. There is no right or wrong answer, nor is there any clue or detail as to who did what. You just pick and then the game says nothing.
Some people like this because it allows them to fill in the blanks. They get to say "oh well she was lying but my character is a quadruple agent for the thalmor so I did this." They like that things are a simple yes or no question so that they can fill in the blanks on exactly how their character responded. They like that their character isn't required to do anything, but can just run around in any direction and do whatever.

Personally? I don't understand this. I don't understand how a lack of content makes it easier to imagine up details. Whether there IS content in the game or not shouldn't hinder your imagination, because by the end of the day, whether there is an answer to who was supporting the Thalmor or not, your story about being a quadruple agent is only a fantasy. You could imagine the quest having a different plot or turn-out if you liked even if it had a real culprit and a real right and wrong choice.
Though tbh, I don't understand the desire to use your imagination with a game. As a catalyst? Sure. I can see a game inspiring stories I could write based on in-game occurances, but using my imagination WITHIN the game? Nah I feel stupid. That'd be like if you were to get turned down by a girl in real life and you IMAGINE she said yes; that's just plain weird and ok you can have fun with your little fantasy quietly to yourself, but you need to be able to come back to reality. I think a game could be made better with the use of your imagination, but I don't think a game should DEPEND on it, which Skyrim does.


Finally, may sound insulting, but I don't think Skyrim fans want to think much. When I first played New Vegas, my FIRST character, I had to put the game down. I wanted to go back to FO3. The moral choices were too overwhelming for me. I had trouble making decisions because there wasn't really a morally right and wrong, so I had trouble playing by FO3's good/evil/neutral system. Then I gave the game another shot, throwing morals out the window and using FACTIONS as my system. I made a hardcoe NCR character, a hardcoe legion character, etc etc etc. THEN I loved the game. I found a way to systemize it.
I think Skyrim fans may be like this too. They don't want to be morally challenged or have to think, they want to have a moral alignment and just have the proper answers for that alignment given to them on a silver platter. I have to admit, I think my first Legion playthrough I MAY have overrun Goodsprings and supported the Powder Gangers just because I thought Legion = evil. (forget if I did or not)


But tbh, I don't fully understand it myself. Just last night I posed the question of "how does Skyrim have more freedom? New Vegas only restricts you from going north the first three hours of gameplay, then you can do whatever the hell you want, but Skyrim forces you to be a werewolf to partake in the fighter's guild, forces you to swear your soul to a god at the end of the thieves guild and all sorts of big time decisions for your character." To me, it seems easy to find away around the deathclaws or to just deal with the intro story than it is to IMAGINE your character isn't a werewolf, but people just disagreed with me (though without providing much argument as to why...).
I don't think "supressed jealousy" is really the answer because if they wanted to play New Vegas they could. They either don't know what they're missing, honestly prefer Skyrim's style (Though the why's still confuse me) or....and then there's this third group that never answers me and just tells me to shutup. Still can't quite figure them out.

I think it's because they don't like RPG's.

Agreed.. problem, like you describe, is a lot of people are convinced we enjoy Skyrim less because we play the game wrong.. and therefore will not listen to any counter arguments.
There is an "interesting" discussion within the general skyrim forums about how Bethesda's bad writing is a blessing or a curse.. It is a perfect example of the way Skyrims adoring community is thinking.

On the note of forced events on the player in Skyrim, if you do the Namira quest, for the cannibals, then whatshername talks about you as if you are and have been for a long time, a cannibal, despite the fact that you cannot eat mer, men or sentient beasts until you get a ring.

And in November, that's exactly how I felt. I found myself bored with NV at first, it was only you guys who insisted I playthrough the game again, with a different frame of what I was truly looking for, that I understood how awesome NV was.

As satisfied with Skyrim as I was, as my friends were, there was truly something missing we could not place our fingers on. After playing through New Vegas a second time, I realize what was missing. That true RPG feeling I first fell in love with in Baldur's Gate and PS:T was rekindled. I forgot the mediocrity I've come to accept as commonplace -- I accepted and fell in deep love with the entire genre anew.

I don't doubt that BGS produces something that's RIGHT UP someone's alley; however, I will never, ever agree with the Skyrim general forums who insist on arguing until their blue in the face on "what constitutes an actual RPG".

Someone once posted an article saying there were two kinds of RPGs and two kinds of RPG players.

One was rule players and rule-based RPGs. (his wording, not mine) This is like New Vegas, the players like actors. We play as actors in a play and we want to see how the world reacts to us.
The other was role players and role-based RPGs. (again, his wording) This is more like Skyrim. The players are more like writers, wanting to create on their own and not be limited.

Rule players get frustrated with games like Skyrim because, as actors, being handed Skyrim's script is like being handed an empty book. It gives us no clues on how we should act or what to do, yet demands that we act. In the same way any actor would be frustrated if you tossed him up on stage and said "ok, act!" without telling him WHAT to act out, so Skyrim frustrates us.
Role players get frustrated with games like Skyrim because, as writers, they don't want to be told no. When New Vegas says you can't pick that lock or you can't pass that speech check or you can't go north, they feel it interrupts with their vision and their character's ability. They may have wanted to pass the speech check for the story, but couldn't because of game mechanics. Like any writer who gets frustrated with a company that edits their book and changes some things around, so New Vegas frustrates them.

I thought that was a fair explanation to describing the two sides of Bethesda's fans, even if I do sorta disagree with the definition of RPGs containing both, since Skyrim lacks any and all reactivity.
As I said though, that still does nothing to justify Skyrim forcing you to be a werewolf or a cannibal or anything else like that, and I still don't understand how it's so hard to just put all your stat points in speech or lockpicking if you wanna access everything, wtf.

A lot of them, yeah. They worry that if true consequences were added into the mix, to where they couldn't finish every last quest for every last faction with just one character, then it won't be a 'TES game'. Personally, I think they have a severe aversion to realism in games, of any kind. And I'm not talking about realistic looking scenery, as that is the least important part of a really good game. Those often are the same people who accuse you of 'not having any imagination', if you prefer your RPG's to be based on good balanced structure, intelligent character progression choices, and quests with real consequences- instead of inventing most of your RPG'ing in your own head like a sock-puppet show. Nah, I'll pass on that, thanks.

Unfortunately, most Skyrim fanatics don't even realize they're wallowing in that mediocrity, lapping it up like hogs, because they simply don't know any better. They haven't had your epiphany, and most likely don't have your background and experiences to even be capable of arriving at that epiphany- they simply love the crap out of Skyrim, and think it's the best thing since fried icecream, out of plain ignorance. And that is sad, for them.

Hearing all of this talk about the Skyrim forum has made me somewhat interested in playing it now. I want to don my explorers hat and venture into the untamed, uncivilized locales of Skyrim General; then sit in a bar, drink a Guinness and wonder at the future of our species.

You haven't played Skyrim?

It's not really that bad, merely frivolous in its own ambition.

I have not and I will only buy it off of Steam when I see a decent sale come around.

Skyrim definitely needed more. I really wanted to love Skyrim but just can't get much enjoyment out of it.

I'll probably give the game another go once some decent overhaul mods come out to make it a bit more interesting. Until then It's back to the Mojave for me.

Save your money. It's not worth it.

I believe money can be better spent on other games for sure, but I (and maybe The Lobotomite) just want to see what it's like for myself and can compare all the talk I hear about it with my own experiences playing it.

That's what I thought and it was the worst 45€ I've spent. Obviously I have no control of your wallets but I recommend at least not buying it for more than 15€/$

Actually I should put this out there. Skyrim is quite a lot of fun while drunk. I don't do it very often but whenever I've had a few and want to play a game, NV or any other RPG's just take too much brainpower to play. Skyrim is also more fun to watch other people play. I guess both games serve their purpose

Now that I think about it... that means Skyrim truly is dumbed down if drunk people can comprehend it