Its really impossible to do the Arena below level 10.
Why does OOO make the Arena so one sided? IIRC warriors are min capped to 16, and not only that they get a 20% normal weapons and 200-300 hp boost with hp+fatigue regeneration on top of the Vanilla bonuses.. So to make it clear..just one argonian in the Gladiator matchup will be

Minimum lvl 19 (max 22)
99 STR
80 Agi
100 Speed
60 Blade
60 H2H
180 HP

+ Vanilla Ability
70 Speed
70 Athletics
20 Resist Magic
20 Resist Normal Weapons

+ OOO "Arena Super Armor
180 HP
25 Res NM

+ OOO "Super Weapon
25 Blade

+ OOO "HP boosts
40 HP
80 HP

Which comes to a total of about
500 HP
90 Blade
45 resist NM
20 resist Magic (so mages have an advantage...)
170 Athletics
170 Speed

And there are 3 Argonians all with these stats, running at you with 170 athletics, staggering every few seconds (even worse with Deadly Reflex)

So if I do 50 dmg with a weapon it will do about 27.5 damage - armor rating..maybe 20 points..my fatigue goes down now its 10-15. by the time I strike again they will regen at least 3-5 of that. So it will take 50+ hits to kill just one of the three combatants, not including the potion they drink at low hp and the regen they have.

I don't know if this was intended but this makes the Arena impossible for low level..

For now I can just simply remove the arena entries added by OOO but I am posting/ranting here because it just seemed utterly ridiculous how overpowered the yellow team is.

Yes, and so? Do you really think it makes sense for a PC below level 20+ to become the Arena Champion? The Champion is supposed to be maybe the best fighter in Cyrodiil, and how can you be that if you're still below level 10?

Agreed. I'd already finished the Arena by the time I got OOO, but the Arena was unrealistically easy in vanilla Oblivion.

Isn't the whole point of OOO to make the game harder for low level characters and easier for high level characters?

I completed over half of it on a level 8 it really isn't that hard, I feel the challenge is rather fun.

Think the readme was pretty darned clear on this

I think it's cause your fighting with a sword. My [badlanguage] tactic with magic and/or ranged seems to get me by when I am in a bind. I mean, if you know the general lay out of the Arena, you can just run away constantly throwing lightning bolts and never get cornered or pinned against a wall(/pillar).

Swords and shields can't solve every problem any more, there are times you just need to use magic or ranged. (more preferably magic)

Precisely!

You don't have to download OOO in the first place. No offence, but I think it's actually rather rude to criticize the modders work considering the time and effort it took to make it to be honest.

So, your complaint is that OOO didn't take into account Elys' Uncapper and Deadly Reflex, neither of which existed at the time OOO was created?

Because without those two, what you get is:
500 HP - easily surpassable by the player depending on build and whether he comes prepared
90 Blade - Meaningless to three guys without weapons
45 resist NM - Meaningless to a player with an enchanted weapon, easily acquirable
20 resist Magic (so mages have an advantage...) - vanilla setting anyway
100 Athletics
100 Speed - The two things that add the most challenge.

And yes, making the arena impossible at low level was kind of the point.

The Arena in OOO is a perfect example of why modders will never fix what is fundamentally wrong with a game, only add features or variety. Some of you will object to this, but it is intrinsic to the way the modding process works (whatever i feel like making) as compared to the professional development process (whether i like it or not).

I am of course referring to the ridiculous and completely unjustifiable boosts given to these competitors. Unjustifiable because there is no game rule or character levelling rule that justifies every arena contestant being present with 100+ speed or other such attributes. In no way does that resemble what a possible player character might look like at level 15-20 - in other words, the Arena contestants blatantly violate the fundamental rules of levelling in the game. It shows perfectly the inconsistency and disregard of basic world rules that modders force on others for the sake of some goal, such as 'challenge' or 'so that low level characters cant win easily'. In the process it completely undermines any semblance of a consistent world, and draws your attention to just how 'gamey' these modders think. And believe me, facing off against hordes of Arena contestants all with 150 speed is patently ridiculous. One high level, extra fast warrior i could understand, provided it was possible to design such a player character. Every single opponent having 100 speed, regardless of what kind of character build they are - inexcusable


The few of you who try and defend this tripe are the kind who only think about what its like in your game, having completed oblivion and gotten bored with every aspect of it several times. You do not turn your mind to whether it makes any sense whatsoever in that world, creating a lack of consistency. That is what seperates mods from games by professional developers.


In most other respects OOO is very good however. Very high quality for a mod. So im not trying to pick on OOO or anything, i use it myself. However, we should not think it is infallible, or could not use some improvement. I think the Arena in OOO should clearly be changed.

So ... fix it yourself? Mods are done by a modders vision on what is right for *them*. They tend not to cater to everyone's whims but build them for their own pleasure first. Not saying they don't take ideas because they do. But basically, a mod is that particular modders vision of what something should be like. If you don't like *their* vision on something you've downloaded and gotten for free from their hard work, feel free to *fix* it to your liking in your game. Long as you don't put it up for others to download claiming it's *yours* it's all good. You do have the power! It's given to you for free. Sort of like turning off the TV when you don't like what you see. Or .. another choice. Go to the open OOO thread, state your case nicely and see if they agree as a few are still working on it though I don't know how in depth.

The Arena itself should be changed. It's a ridiculous conglomeration of stupid design decisions, solely intended to give the player some "instant action" and "fame".

Yes, the characters should be based on realistic builds, experts in their classes (at the higher levels) but not stupidly so.

Equally important, the arena equipment should have no stat boosts, and be standardized across the board. Weapons & armor, with jewelry and other equipment completely banned.

Third, the Arena should be non-lethal. You should be able to lose without having to restart your game. You should be able to re-challenge a foe you lost against, or have a defeated foe re-challenge you. There should be more of a ladder to climb, more competition amongst your own team. The other team should actually exist. You should be paying to enter the Arena, with a chance of winning more money back. And you should be able to watch a match without placing a bet.

The simple fact is, most of the game is based on "game mechanics" not realistic mechanics. Most mods stick to that rule. The entire game would have to be rebuilt to properly balance it.

I'm not saying the Arena is perfect in OOO, far from it, I generally agree with what showler writes. But your quote here is nothing but insulting nonsense, on a similar level as stating that people like you are the kind who only think about easily beating the game and cry out whenever it challenges you. I don't think that about you, but there's no reason to categorize me and others who have replied in such a way, either.

For myself I can guarantee that you're completely wrong. The first time I played Oblivion, the Arena was a major disappointment because it was so little challenge. I found I could continue to beat the opponents all the way to the champion, quite easily while still being low level (10 or so). That was a complete immersion breaker that made no sense for the Champion of Cyrodiil. So I certainly turn my sense to what makes sense in this gameworld. And to me it makes very much more sense that you have to be a high level character to become the Champion than to meet average enemies.

That was an excellent suggestion. It has always bothered me that the arena was a win- or reload situation. Maybe I'll try to make a mod that can fix that.

On second reading, this quote amuses the hell out of me. All these mods, including the various Arena tweaks and overhauls, are an attempt by the modding community to make sense of the decision of Bethesda Softworks. The aforementioned "professional developer".


I thought about it some recently. Add a "changing room" to the arena where players have to trade all their equipment for Arena standarized equipment (it can be quite high level, the damage will scale with player level/skill/strength/etc.). Make all the arena armor outside of the changing room be "practice armor" without enchantment. Change the enchantment on the real armor so that it doubles the hit points of the person wearing it. Script it so that once the hit points drop below 50% (You've lost all your natural hit points) the person gets paralyzed, but also gets 100 armor rating and 100 resistance to everything for about twenty seconds. That ends the fight, and gives a reason for why the arena is non-lethal. Just make sure the armor can't be taken from the arena.

Another irony is of course that Sotobrastos was headhunted by Bethesda because of OOO.

I seldom do the Arena but I have to say that the OOO version is almost objectively more consistent than vanilla.

Also, what separates (good) mods from games by professional developers is that enthusiastic mod makers can put a lot more time/work into their projects. Compare the work hours spent on Frostcrag Spire with the amount of work that went into, say, Ancient Towers. Professional designers simply doesn't have the time to perfect stuff, for obsessive attention to detail, especially in such huge game worlds as Bethesdas. The total work hours that has gone into my heavily modded FCOM game is probably astronomical - and most of it as professional as Bethesdas own work I'd say.

It always baffles me when we go through these periodic waves of modder criticism.

I will admit irR4tiOn4L has made and irrational statement, ha ha ha :sadvaultboy: lame joke...

Adding a "never-die" theme to the Arena would be great :hehe: if you made a never-die system for the arena I would certainly give you a little praise.

But, on to the topic of this thread. You know honestly, I didn't even know the stats of the enemies, I just played the game for what it is. Oh no, challenge? Do I blame their build for this? no, let alone open the CS for why that enemy is such a challenge.
I could damn well guarantee that irR4tiOn4L would not have made quite an arguement if he didn't know those combatants were built like such. So what there is a challenge and the only way to execute it is by giving them 100 speed? Oh noz, 100 speed!?! that stat is a lethal stat!
I mean, atleast they aren't ploping 100 strength/100 endurance down on these enemies! 100 speed is no big deal. So they can run fast? maybe this is a preventive measure against my arena tactic when I am in a bind.

anyways, all I have to say, is play the game - modded or not - for what it is. if you have a problem with it, you can either fix it yourself, or go and talk to they maker to see if he sees your views the same on the situation. But, if mods have to go through a creative process before being released to be used, then they are an art. And the best artists never created for their fans, they created for themselves.

I agree with this. Overall OOO comes closest to making the game make 'sense', but as i said - you cant expect modders to fix a game with some fundamentally flawed game mechanics.

Also, im perfectly capable of fixing the stats of Arena combatants and would do so myself before asking anyone else. But is it worth it for the Arena - hmm



Your choice as to how you react.

My point was that in your mind you pursued a goal (Arena should not be beaten by low level characters) rather than turning your mind to the underlying mechanic and HOW that goal should be achieved.

What you are defending is the goal - that the Arena should be hard. What I AM saying is that the goal should be achieved differently, with realistic character builds. This is not a question of Easy Arena vs 130 speed enemies. What you clearly show, however, is that this is how you have put the problem when you defend the OOO arena ("to me it makes very much more sense that you have to be high level character to become the Champion than to meet average enemies")

That is why i characterised your defending an unsatisfactory state of affairs in that way



The point was that a consistent result and production values is where professional developers have an advantage. But in this case, Bethesda sold out. The game they chose to make was 'dumbed down' for a casual audience. Because making consistent, overarching game mechanics and content is not what modders do well (after all, its not their job and they are doing this in their free time - few modders want to spend time on changing something they dont personally feel is problematic), without completely overhauling the game theres thus only so much modders can fix about Oblivion.

Not all mods are born equal though - some total overhauls do exist, with a new world, quests etc. But not many, and not at the production values Bethesda use (map design, models, voice acting etc).

YES, OOO is overall an exceptional mod. But does it expand on the quest lines, change the childish dialogue or make the content more in depth, like Morrowind? Not really - the horse has already bolted on that one when Bethesda made the game they did.

Im not dissing modders or saying they are never going to be developers - my brother works for Bohemia Interactive after sending in his missions - hes been modding, and ive joined in, everything from unreal to Arma 2. So i certainly accept that modders can be developers, and vice versa. But its not the same process - when youre modding you dont need to produce the consistent, seamless results that you do when youre a professional developer. The vast majority of mods are not ready to be sold as games



Sure, thats probably correct. I did open the console and query their stats almost right away.

But i did so BECAUSE i felt something was 'not right'. Its pretty hard to miss that every Arena combatant is moving at superhuman speed. And regardless of how HARD they are to actually dispatch (harder, but not too much so - once again i was most of the way through the arena at level 4) its a massive immersion breaker and doesnt fit the world. But thats a minor problem overall, and OOO does most other things right - i am merely using the Arena in it as an example.



What does matter is that Oblivion should have been an entirely different game in the first place, particularly after Morrowind. Larger, deeper and more mature, not dumbed down and childish. And unfortunately, even the best mods like OOO can only alleviate this - not turn Oblivion into the game it should have been

Why do people keep quoting Morrowind when talking Oblivion?
It's mind numbing.
In all probability I played MW a helluva lot more than the average user. Do you want me to nitpick at it's faults too?
Compare some of it's short comings to Daggerfall?
Or did you work some sort of miracle with mods that made it the perfect game - because I sure as hell couldn't, and still can't.
No game is perfect. Just be happy that the TES ones have modability and we have the ability to rectify about 99.9% of what we as individuals may see as faults.

Quite obviously your not happy with what's available so perhaps it is time you cracked open the CS to see exactly what can be produced, eh?

The only wrong issue I see in the stats is the speed. The rest looks normal. TBH, at level 19 I am invincible to anything except the most magic heavy fights. And for that I had potions.
NPCs need an innate HP boost to counter the low HP gain in vanilla. (You can mod a global to have them gain more for each level up.)
Furthermore NPCs need skill boosts because they gain 2 skillpoints per level up. You see, NPCs do not follow PC rules.
All in all, the boosts arena NPCs gain is minimal compared to "clean" OOO/FCOM game. Of course, you can mod that game to reduce probability to gain magic items and not be unkillable at lvl 20.

Been there, done that.

Thanks, I played both Daggerfall and Morrowind, and know the insides of the game. I dont need a breakdown.

Why do i mention Morrowind, but not Daggerfall? Simple - daggerfall was mostly procedural, random generation. Different kind of game design. Morrowind was the first Elder Scrolls RPG that hand placed most/all content and Oblivion follows on in that lineage. Except Oblivion does so very badly.


I could mention Redguard, which imho is the best of the lot, but most people havent played that, and also Fallout 3, which is an example of Bethesda learning from its lessons with Oblivion.



But you accept that the speed stat is an issue.

Noone said the new Arena was too hard. They said it was simply illogical and just plain irritating (try not to get nauseous as the AI runs into you and circle strafes at 150 speed)

Of all the stats that should not be boosted past 100, speed is the most important one and the number one immersion breaker, because it affects the way characters actually MOVE. Visual realism is one of the most uncompromising elements of game design - few people notice, and fewer still mind, if the economics of the game is off, or if every book in the game is 5 pages long. Almost everyone is bothered by bad animations, haphazard and unpredictable character movement or graphical artifacts. Strength of 150 makes for a hit like Schwarznegger. Speed of 150 makes for slapstick comedy. Its just a giant no-no if you want your fighting to be taken seriously.

I can see what you mean and I agree.
It never bothered me so much that they are fast, in the small room that is the arena you won't notice it that much. On the countryside it would be much more noticable.
All in all the change is for the better on the fighting site. Perhaps instead of having them run fast they gain a lesser power or something to slow down the player? Or make them run fast but not too fast that it feels like they are Superman?

Well for a start, what PROBLEM is the speed boost solving? I think this is worth considering, because players running backwards away from the AI was never such a big problem in the Arena in the first place (unless the player had a lot of speed - in which case, wheres the problem? They OUGHT to outpace the AI). However, if this does prove an issue and people feel the Arena contestants should be more agile, then a boost of 20 to speed would have been more than sufficient - with most contestants now sporting 70+ speed, only very quick players would be able to get away. Its also something that would have been feasible for the player with some enchanted items/sigil stones, and so it makes sense that Arena contestants might have found a way to do so. Also consider the boosts to the raiments themselves - the light armor already has a boost to athletics, so maybe upping this along with a boost to speed might have automatically made light armor raiment wearers faster in the Arena - but the player could have used theirs to compensate.

A boost of 100 to speed is just completely going overboard. It means you treated the subject with some contempt, let alone testing the result. The result is just crud - contestants move two to three times as fast as even quick players, and no player on an equivalent level (something like 10-15 for much of the arena) could boost their own speed that much. Theres really no need to boost speed (and a lot of other stats too, but since they dont have such a large effect on their respective skills anyway (eg with blade 100 strenght 100 you do 27 damage, with strength 50 you do 21, on my character) theres not too much harm done with those) by such a large amount

Actually I agree with the massive speed boost being immersion breaking, much as I cringe at using the phrase. Whenever it's used to increase the challenge of an opponent, whether in a quest mod, or in some of the smaller scale overhauls I've tried, it reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlxVL5QV-Mo&feature=related, and I am instantly completely out of the moment, and on the floor laughing. *shrug*

I usually just edit the stats myself. I can always make them impossible to disarm, difficult to stagger, give them a constant minor regen, or just make them hit incredibly hard. But the speed boost goes- it just looks silly to me.