Dude! It is an OVERHAUL. That means changing the existing game. You are really missing something here. That makes no sense, at all! A significant number of mods make changes to existing records. Post your load order here. I would really like to see if you are running a list of mods that do not depend on Oblivion.esm. I have seen a total of one, maybe two, plugins that do not depend on Oblivion.esm, and I have probably used about 1000 mods for Oblivion at this point. You really must not understand the "honest attempt" to which you are referring. Oh my gosh, your train of thought...

No, you aren't right, you just THINK that you are right (or at least think that your Guild Master is right). What part of the words Oscuro's Oblivion OVERHAUL (hint! hint!) didn't you get?

Malpractice and dirty edits? Well, I could start about pathgrids in a certain mod, but it's probably best that I don't.

allow me to clarify i'm not saying it should avoid ch angi ng the vanill a game entierly i'm saying if it can do somthign witho ut changing the vanilla game records its generally a good idea to do so. like how Lock Bash Omega insteado f changing Vanilla doors and containers uses OBSE as a means of detection. it could have gone the old rout and alterd the vanilla refs but it chose not to. all i'm saying is measures should be taken so that the wh ole thing doesn't need so many "OOO Version" or "OOO Compatibility patch" files

You of course do realise that many OBSE functions weren't there when OOO was created, don't you? This is so tiresome.... :snoring:

I think that your badly misinformed on how OOO works if your taking Lock Bash Omega as an example.
What patch does it require? You simply load it after all OOO files to overwrite any alterations that Oscuro's makes.
The same can be said of 99% of other mods.
Do you not think you should get some facts right before posting?

In case you didn't know, one of the O's in OOO stands for Overhaul...

yes i know what it means and what it stands for ono need to keep repe3ating it over and over and over again. I know OOO came before OBSE functionality. and i'm not using Lock Bash Omega as an example of an incompatibility

This person does not know what "overhaul" means. I already tried that... What in the world would you say to a person that says a cosmetic mod that adds hairs and eyes to the vanilla races should not modify the vanilla records? I really want to see this load order that contains no vanilla record changes...


Edit: Knowing a word superficially and understanding what it means when used in various contexts is not the same thing.

I think what he's trying to say is that the makers of OOO should not edit vanilla references to get the job done. For example, you could instead of editing an existing NPC create a new NPC designed your way, and then fill the leveled lists with that NPC.

And I think he dislikes Tes4Edit because most patches involve using the ESP as a master. Doing so makes it impossible to change the mod with the TES Construction Set. I think it's an odd practice - I use TES CS for everything, and couldn't imagine making an entire mod out of Tes4Edit -, but it seems to work for people. I think it's fine as long as a person who follows this route thoroughy tests his mods. Whenver I make a mod, I always test-play it 5 or so times to make sure I didin't get anything wrong (and to enjoy thw work I've put into it).

If you like canon breaking sidequests, Get OOO.

If you like going into unimportant caves and finding the entire thing filled with minotaurs, get OOO.

If you like fighting friggin fifteen reavers in EVERY ROOM in an oblivion gate tower, get OOO.

It is an overhaul, it is expected to change existing records. If you read the docs, you would expect it to change the NPCs as well. Part of the reason why a user would add MMM is to have the behavior of NPCs modified, existing NPCs, not creating a world full of the empty vanilla NPCs while the MMM NPCs parade around them. If you want a mod to add new content, you are looking in the wrong place.

What does TES4Edit have to do with anything? The person looked at OOO with it to help form a badly drawn conclusion. OOO provided an ESM so that other mod makers could easily make patches or extensions for it. Plus, what you say about TES4Edit is also irrelevant and makes little sense. There is nothing in TES4Edit's docs or description that says you have to make patches that depend on ESPs. It allows you to do that, but it is not necessary. The tool does not dictate how the user uses it. TESCS may add a bunch of junk to a plugin if you modify the right records. I have used very little of TESCS, but even with the few tweaks I have made with it, I have run into that issue. I use both utilities. However, this has nothing to do with OOO.


Edit: ...and now there is more unhappy user spam in the thread, great... For the record, I have only run into about...twelve? reavers at once, after adding FCOM, and I have only run into minotaurs outside. I am glad the OP is deciding for himself. There is nothing like users who install a mod not understanding what it is to blow the things they dislike about it out proportion (and make up more stuff to go along with the "horror stories"...)

Or rather not, as they are from MMM.

:laugh: : :wink_smile:
Yeah, we're getting some major input in this thread form OOO users that know the mod inside out.

You're from MMM. D:<

In other words: RTFM, mr. Sykes!

Woah, I think you misinterpreted me.

I am not criticzing any part of OOO or Tes4Edit whatsoever. I am just saying how it's sometimes not neccesary to edit vanilla items, and that it can be bypassed. An overhaul does not neccesarilly have to edit vanilla items to be an overhaul. Yes, that is what the common definition of "overhaul" in Oblivion is, but an "overhaul" can be broader than just editing vanilla stuff.

And I am not saying that all patches require the ESPs and Tes4Edit to work; many don't. I just find the use of the tool instead of TES CS sometimes odd. The TES CS works fine for me. Then again, I have not edited much in terms of vanilla content in my few mods, so I may be missing something. Nevertheless, I am not attempting to criticize you guys in any way. As long you continue making great mods like OOO, I'm fine.

nm

Let's go more OOO specific here: Large-scale overhauls, might be able to get around some edits with OBSE, and the same can be said for almost any mod, but there are many users who do not use OBSE, have no desire to use OBSE and have been using OOO since before OBSE was introduced and do not care to add it. For those who have been observing the COBL thread recently, you know that maintaining OBSE and non-OBSE versions of a mod, is not simple. Switching over to it is kind of like asking Microsoft to throw out all of its bad code and actually come up with a good clean OS, at the cost of their long-time corporate uses that do not want to switch to the new architecture yet...on a much smaller scale, of course, but I think you get the idea.

Edit: I could've left Microsoft out and used the 32-bit and 64-bit transition problem instead. I kind of meant to do that anyway.

JavaCroc is expressing my meaning pwerfectly thats exactly what i'm getting at. if it CAN avoid editing vanilla content it should

...and I have already indicated that it cannot. Many mods cannot avoid editing vanilla content, and, in many cases, the performance and labor costs of doing so are not worth it. "Mod" stands for "modification" by the way. Think about users outside of yourself: users that do not use OBSE, users that want the vanilla content modified, etc.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. If a mod can avoid editing vanilla content, it should. If it's something like OOO, a mod that is already so well developed and supported, I see no reason to scrap years of work. I try to avoid editing vanilla content in my mods, but sometimes it's just easier to change the level on a bandit NPC instead of creating a new one all together. OOO may edit vanilla content, but noting how well it's been supported by mods like SM, C&C, and FCOM, I think it's perfectly acceptable.

If mod's purpose is to modify vanilla content, then it clearly cannot avoid editing vanilla content. Most mods with plugins, especially if they have no OBSE support, do. You should be able to tell, most of the time, after reading mod's docs. If a mod has no incompatibilities, it says that in the ReadMe. The description describes the changes, so you should be able to figure out if there are potential incompatibilities if you really know your setup (and many users do not.)

I do not know if you use OOO or not, but I certainly would not like it if the pathetic Vanilla bandits were not overhauled with OOO's new enemy types (yes, it add new enemy types). That would be like adding a weapon mod that does not have OMOBS balancing to my game. There would not be a need for MOBS and OMOBS patches, if users were happy mixing up the systems. If you do not care about balance, then toss in whatever mod you like that adds random new NPCs to the game. Adding unbalanced content can break the OOO experience. Yes, you can make an overhaul that fits the vanilla game, but that is not what OOO does, nor does it profess to do that. I really do not understand the criticizing mods for thing they do not do. You can just look for another mod that makes changes you do want to see, and implemented in the way you want.

Your interpretations of what the other users has been saying ignores the false accusations of "malpractice" and "bad edits."


Edit: Again, most mods edit vanilla content, hence the Oblivion.esm dependency...

Doing everything by scripts just means it's even more difficult to spot conflicts. What if two mods dynamically try to change the same vanilla records by scripts? At least conflicting records that changed directly are very easy to detect, and patch if needed, with TES4EDIT.
Example: Willful Resistance and L.A.M.E used to conflict because they both scripted Willpower's effect on received magical damage, which led to constant crashes.

In conclusion, no one has come up with any serious problems that are isolated to OOO, other than "serious" conflicts with personal preference. Great, now we have arrived at the same conclusion the users reach for almost any well-made mod. If you do not like a mods changes, do not use it. If you do, welcome to the fan club.

Children, children ...

Maybe i'll be able to extend your view, as i know something about working on overhauls myself. His initial post was indeed too hostile and vague, but one apology is enough, i suppose? As far as i can see, tnu was pointing out how he dislikes mods that change too many vanilla stuff. And OOO is one of the mods that change a lot of stuff. When making an overhaul, it is very easy to derail from your goals and change things you wouldn't like to, or even shouldn't. Now, i don't know and don't care if the creators wanted to alter all the things they did, it doesn't matter. But the fact is that they did, and they made, as far as i heard from majority of people, a very good job. And an obvious product of expanding an overhaul and making it more one-stop-shop is increased room for mistakes and rough edges, increased difficulty of damming all the bugs, less room for customization, huge demand for patches, ... That's why some prefer (myself included) more focused overhauls, and more of smaller mods that each alter it's own aspect of the game, rather then a heavy overhaul like OOO. For example, one may rather install basic Francesco's and make his own little mods that change stuff that needs to be changed (links are in the signature ). Of course sometimes, some project cannot be made small and modular (that link is also in the signature, winky wink).

And by the way ... i wasn't posting lately, so hi!