Some of it may have to do with remembering from that impressionable age (I was considerably older), but quite simply the entire genre is gone. You can't buy a "character-skill based" RPG anymore, unless you pick up a copy of some 10-20 year old game. There may be a decent market for them yet, who knows?

The other thing is, if I'm still playing it, and enjoying it for the same reasons that I did 6-10 years ago (and enjoying a few other old games from back then that I NEVER played before), how is that "nostalgia"? I recently played Fallout, the original, and thought it was a great game, but heavily dated. The underlying gameplay is still great, even though the interface, graphics, and other aspects are annoying by modern standards. I thought the FO3 "sequel" was kind of boring in comparison; the excessive scaling didn't help. In most of the newer games, the graphics and action are spectacular, but the underlying game is all but a no-show, and most of your "tough choices" make no difference to speak of...you get rewarded either way.

While I'm not doubting the likelihood (and it is quite likely) that what you say is true for most people, I've had lots of friends who started the TES series with Oblivion or Skyrim. Every single one of them, though it took some time to acclimate to the mechanics, ultimately preferred Morrowind. I'm not saying this is the case for everybody, especially since I have a rather selective taste in friends, but the game remains me a lot of Fallout 1 and 2. It just feels "right" to play, regardless of whether you're doing so in 2002 or 2012 (by the way, I didn't play Fallout 1 until 2005).

Plus, when people are nostalgic about video games, it's often a longing for a time when the game still felt new and mysterious to them, or in the case of multiplayer games, a time when they were a part of a particularly memorable community, clan, guild or what have you. Returning to those games now and then is a pleasant novelty but it's not the same way it used to be. Morrowind, however? It continues to impress me just as it did when I first played it. Again, I'm sure this isn't the case for everybody, but I would definitely say most still find it immensely satisfying to play in spite of any conveniences/streamlining of modern games that may have jaded their view somewhat.

I've never bought the Nostalgia argument. The people who post about Morrowind here actually play the game. You're basically accusing them of not knowing what kind of game they like.

The reality, as other posters have pointed out, is that nobody is making character-driven cRPGs any more. The kind of game that Morrowind players like to play is not being made.

You could argue that they are misguided to focus their disappointment on the later TES games, and I would tend to agree. Nobody at Bethesda ever guaranteed that they were going to adhere to the style of gameplay that was in their earlier games.

But the people who love Morrowind are not wrong to express their disappointment. Clearly they have a preference, which is not being met by modern game publishers. They have every right to hope that somebody might listen, and offer some game options that appealed more to RPG players. Choices are good. There's no rule that says you have to throw out X in order to put in Y.

I disagree with this. Take a recent (to me, at least) game like Dragon Age: Origins. In that game the player issues commands, moves characters around, ect, but character skill determines the outcome of most activities just as in classic character-skill-based games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape Torment. Say what you will about Bioware games - and I'm not a big fan of them - I'd say they mostly adhere to the old character-skill-based model.

Agreed, although I haven't really played Morrowind much at all, but I can still relate on the corners cut out of Oblivion to Skyrim.

another thing, I'm a level 66 Khajiit too

Count me in your "We" group and tell your daughter she is leete.

Did Dragon Age: Origins sell? Does that say anything about character-based RPGs, or do the "indirect" mechanics of ordering troops around appeal to a different market than First-Person dungeoncrawler RPGs? I've seen it in stores, but it didn't look like anything special, so I never took an interest.

Yes Dragon Age: Origins was very popular, and it was a character-based RPG. You had attributes, skills, you made a character, you leveled him up and then you had a 'party' of followers who you could also level up in a similar way. Very much like Knights of the Old Republic.

You hardly 'order troops' around, but you were supposed to tactically control your own character and your party of 2 followers to try and put the armored guy in front to absorb damage, with the healing character in the back and protected, etc. If anything, it's much more technical than anything Morrowind lovers ask for, and was generally a much more linear, cinematic experience than Skyrim. I think Dragon Age: Origins is proof that a character-based roleplay can be commercially successful, and that if Bethesda rolled back the clock on their design philosophy they could do even better than DA:O.

Kill cam toggle or gtfo.

I...We agree with you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8btuyjPJ9n8

I don't think it's a matter of whether I liked morrowind, but there are things in morrowind I love -- and this is from someone starting in Oblivion. It's not really a matter of even something particularly wrong with Skyrim, just things that I think would make the game more of a replayable game rather than a "complete and move on" game. It's really the state of the industry in general, and as much as we dislike it, RPGs are mainstream games. The problem is that RPGs and strategy games are really about the only two genres aimed as much at advlts as at kids, so I dislike it when another one goes south. And I will say that despite some of the good stuff, TES is starting to go downhill. Still better than a lot of other stuff, but I'd say the game is aimed more at 15 year old kids than even oblivion was. And I've said this enough times -- but since the average gamer is 25+, I think it's a neglected part of the market, and that if a company would go there, they'd get big rewards. Besides who controls the entertainment budget, 15 year old kids working at McDonalds and living at home, or 25 year old college grads in their own homes?

So where is the stuff for US? where are the deep storylines, the puzzles that take brains to solve, the characters with a deep backstory, or the gameplay that makes you think? Where is the strategic combat? Where is the morally interesting quests that can have you helping or hurting two very good causes? Where are the branching paths that matter? (Not even saying MW has all this, but it's what I want) Sure, I got a sandbox, and there are "things to do" sometimes even FUN things to do, but I'm often left with the nagging sense that a lot of gaming companies are scared to death of consequences. It seems like a lot of them are afraid that if they put a game changing quest in the game -- one that prevents you from doing something else, the gamer will be frustrated and never want to play again. I think this is wrong -- consequences give the choice meaning. If I choose the Stormcloaks, it's because their cause matters to me, and therefore it should matter to the world. even in negativity (like not being able to strut around Solitude and even in the Imperial fort in Solitude while wearing the uniform of a Stormcloak). If I want to RP a Khajiit caravaner, I think the choice of race should matter beyond a few bandits saying I'd make a nice rug -- maybe I should have to do something extrordinary to win the right to enter a city no Khajiit can enter. Or maybe I should have to do something to prove that I'm a loyal Skyrimmer if I'm not a Nord. I've personally been playing around with simple mods on MW, one of which is a "slave bracer mod" (if you want to try in google it) -- in which if I put the slave bracer on my character, it effectively has the game treat me like a slave. Can't buy or sell stuff, most of the NPCs won't talk to me (or some will say stupid stuff like "slavery must not be too bad, they give you clothes" or "I hope your master isn't too cruel") -- but it's fun, precisely because it's a choice with a consequence. My character is a slave -- at least until he gets freed -- IF the DB doesn't kill him first. But the point is that such complexity adds value because rather than always being Neo in Skyrim (the all powerful who can do anything anytime because he's Dragonborn and that's just how it works), I can be either a rich fool, a sailor, a slave, or a merchant before I'm Nevarine the magnificent. And with each choice, I'm playing that part. If I choose redoran it affects a lot of other stuff. If I'm Hjalti the Nord Barbarian in need of a bath, people will react to me that way. That's what I want -- a game for grown ups who don't want to be Neo World Savior and look cool doing it. That kind of stuff is boring.

OP: You misspelled "plethora."

For this whole
"uuhhh morrowind fans and veterans dont like skyrim"
That is wrong,i love skyrim,almost as much as morrowind,but not that much.
Morrowind>Skyrim>Oblivion
The three new games. Daggerfalll is amazing<3 goingto play it more.
And thanks bethesda for creating my favourite game series of all time.

I second your opinion.

Best. Series. Ever.

I'm like the only person who liked Oblivion more than Skyrim, can't really compare between Morrowind yet though because I haven't really gotten anywhere in it

Maybe because i'm on Console for all 3, even though on Console I still did some pretty odd stuff in Oblivion that some people would suggest Mods for. O.o

Nope, you aren't. The Oblivion General Discussion forum is filled with folks who feel the same way.

It's mindblowing to look back on the 18 years of elder scrolls and see how far bethesda has come. It's impressive, because back during the late 80's and throughout the 90's, the PC gaming industry was a niche, albeit a struggling niche... Bethesda was one of those "starving artist" companies, a company that eventually started the whole elder scrolls dreamworld, gaining millions of fans nearly two decades later.

I would imagine Arena didn't sell that many copies. Same goes for Daggerfall, although I remember watching my much older cousin play it when I was in my mid-teenage years (I still remember that loud VENGEEEAAAANCE yell when King Lysandus appeared... made me jump out of my seat!). I guess that was the first time I really became aquainted to the ES franchise, with daggerfall. I was only partially intrigued then; my cousin rambling on about the lore and the different gods and demons you can worship and joining the dark brotherhood etc. Of course there were other games at the time like Duke Nukem 3D, which held my interest more.

Then the Renassaince that was Morrowind came out and all of that partial interest I had with daggerfall went into full overdrive with Morrowind. From then on, the ES universe became a memorable entertainment piece for me. I read up on the lore, from the meaning of the Elder Scrolls to the different daedra gods and the divines as well as the different lands of tamriel not to mention the different continents of Nirn. I also read up on the events that transpired during the first 2 games, so I had an idea of what was going on in Tamriel when I started playing Morrowind . Yeah, I was addicted... but that addiction eventually lost steam when I started experiencing the world of college: dating, roadtrips, and beer pong galore in my late teenage years.

Didn't make me love the ES universe any less though; I just tucked that love away and never made it known unless someone who was as passionate about the series as I was mentioned it... which didn't happen very often, I might add. From what I know and heard of, was that if it wasn't for Morrowind, Bethesda would've gone bankrupt and the elder scrolls series would've been forgotten... leaving the little-known arena and daggerfall in it's wake. Morrowind was Bethesda's saving grace. And I personally believe that Bethesda should look back, take some things that made morrowind for what it was, than incorproate those things into the next ES installment while also blending in with the things that made Skyrim great. It would be brilliant and divine.
Cheers!

I that the above post, but the above quote especially is a positive philosophy, and a great 'rule of thumb' going forward that even a member of the 'Morrowind Old Guard' like me can agree with.

* SIGH *
Before the release of Skyrim, I had hopes that Bethesda would return to a style of game design that was more akin to Morrowind or Daggerfall, but it seems that they refuse to abandon the idea that every game in the series needs to be completely redesigned and/or streamlined. Pity. I really wanted to love Skyrim, but everytime I play, I keep thinking, 'what's the point?'. I don't feel particularly motivated to go exploring or dungeon diving, and combat isn't terribly satisfying. The leveling system is quite bad, IMO, particularly from a roleplaying perspective. NPC dialogue is shallow and pointless, as are the factions, so I feel no connection with anyone in the game or to the gameworld. In fact, the only things that I can absolutely say that I love about Skyrim are the scenery and the lore (books). Yet, I see so much potential for it to be a great game, as opposed to simply being a good game. I, too, think that Bethesda should return to either Daggerfall or Morrowind as a foundation and build upon those games. I think the result would be a much more satisfying experience. Unfortunately, it would probably also make the game too complex for a fairly large portion of the gaming market, so in the end I'm afraid that its all just wishful thinking for those of us who are looking for a more engaging experience from the Elder Scrolls. But, hey, at least we have mods, right?

Double post.

I feel the same way -- I'm in a pretty world, but it doesn't exactly LIVE. But I think its something that will make a comeback as the gamer population ages. Skyrim is sort of a kiddie game -- not that deep, but very kewl. Older gamers will want depth and consequences like Daggerfall and Morrowind. But until then, at least the Khajiit and Argonians are pretty.

And in the end, isn't that what matters most?

First by carriage, then by boat.
To the east, to Morrowind!


Yes I agree.
Bring back that feeling of a world.
Respawning Forsworn are no match for the last http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Punammu of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Navil_Ienith family I hunted down.

Oblivion and Skyrim are games.
Morrowind and Daggerfall were worlds. Something was lost, and it is the soul of TES.

Ever since Oblivion TES lore has been leeching off of Daggerfall and Morrowind.
They say there are 300 books, but how many new books are there?

The books in Morrowind meant something. You could meet Aryon and Seyndie and Neloth and all those people of all those skill books that now portray options that do not exist anymore, such as acrobatics, teleportation and levitation all to show that its a poorer game really.
Copy /paste without thought that only brings the flaws closer to the surface.

Great thread! Wow, alot of you guys hit the nail on the head of what used to be better times in the ES series. Thanks op.