And the Lone Wanderer defeated the Super Mutant threat and the Enclave with Lyons.


Maxson inherited a comparatively stable Capital Wasteland.


And my proof is that they tell you these things. They tell you we are not humanitarians. We are refocused on collecting technology. We protect caravans to convince them to give a discount. All of this is proven in game lore.


The whole schism with the Outcasts was because of Lyon's humanitarian efforts which Maxson ended.

Lone Wanderer didn't defeat the super mutant threat, the FEV was still in Vault 87 which didn't get destroyed. Also no, Maxson didn't inherit a stable Capital Wasteland, he made it stable. When Maxson took over the BoS was on the brink of death because of the super mutant threat and ineffective leaders, Maxson came along and stopped said Super Mutant threat, brought the Outcasts back into the fold, set up a more reliable recruitment system then Lyons had (which at the of Fallout 3 only recruited three non-BoS born members including the Lone Wanderer, one of which died.) and used the captured Enclave tech more wisely then Lyons did.

No, the whole outcast schism was because Lyons purely focused on humanitarian aid to local settlements and left out scavenging and finding tech, that's why the Outcasts left. Maxson combines the two, he works to make life better for settlements but at the same time puts a heavy focus on finding tech. You can do both and doing both lead to Maxson making the Brotherhood stronger, have new hardware like the T-60s and allowed him to set up good relations with both the outcasts who now are back with the BoS and local settlements and wastelanders who seek to join the BoS to make life better.

The BoS protects caravans, the BoS goes to locations to take out raiders, super mutants and ferals (Some locations having no technological research importance or background, BoS patrols will even drop down near ruined country side towns and apartment buildings in downtown Boston solely because ferals, super mutants and raiders call it home), BoS does a lot for wastelanders and to make the wasteland safe all the while doing their original purpose of finding tech.

The Outcasts didn't care that Lyons wanted to help people, I'm sure some liked that, the outcasts cared that Lyons was throwing the original mission and purpose of the group to the side and doing the least he can do to actually find tech. In Fallout 3 there is one research team trying to find tech and what do they spend their time doing? Oh yea find books. That's it just books, no subjects or anything of importance nope, just books and the research team amounted to one scribe and two knights. That shows how much Lyons actually cared about finding tech.

Oh and let's not forget her task is essentially a punishment because she clashed with her superiors. So it's not even an honest effort it's just she messed up so now she is being punished to do a menial task with very little resources

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Yearling

After Elder Lyons death closely followed by Sarah Lyons death in combat, there was a succession of weak leaders before Maxson and during that time there was a Super Mutant crisis that Maxson dealt with, the idea that Maxson inherited a stable Captial Wasteland isn't backed by the lore.

The schism with the Outcasts was caused by the recruitment of outsiders, the abandonment of their mission to collect tech and their attempts to pacify the region by fighting the hostile forces in the region.....the EC Brotherhood continues to recruit outsiders (actually that seems to have increased), continues to fight the hostile forces in the region, indeed has established a country in the CW making them the standing army of the CW and collecting tech again while not being their main focus.

So Maxson going back to the old ways doesn't make a lot of sense since he is doing things the West Coast BOS don't do, but yes he has ended the belief that the Brotherhood can be a charity giving freely and receiving nothing in return and frankly that makes more sense than on old man's dream of a better tomorrow being paid in his declining followers blood.

I'd be fine with the Brotherhood if it, like the NCR, was capable of listening to reason. I don't even necessarily need them to withdraw, as the NCR would in a House/Independent ending, but to just stop their synth extermination and enter negotiations with the Institute/Railroad. Alas, this does not appear to be within their capacity.

Why would it be?

To use the NV model you're asking the NCR to make peace with the Legion, because the Legion is made up of slaves, most of their ranks were either forced into the Legion when their tribes where slaughtered or have been raised and indoctrinated by the Legion from birth.

The Synths are the aggressors in the Brotherhood minds, they obviously encountered them first in the CW and then organised an expedition to deal with this threat to human existence.........and the disappearance of humans and their replacement with Synthetic doppelgangers is a threat to the nation they have built in the CW. So they have every right to deal with such a threat. The real problem with the Brotherhood for you is that they will not make the strange decision to abandon that stance in favour of helping the Synths with nothing they seen giving them a reason to do so. Synths are a threat, the Institute is a threat and the Railroad is a threat, all are viable targets to end that threat.

It would be more troubling if the Brotherhood could abandon their stance for no apparent reason, it would be like the Railroad suddenly becoming anti-Synth because of the player's experience and views.

It's not in the Insitute's or the Railroad's capacity, either. When the Brotherhood shows up, Des immediately leaps to trying to destroy them. The idea of diplomacy never even gets mentioned. So why is this a criticism leveled solely at the Brotherhood?


This is just like with blowing up the Institute. Even though everyone does the exact same thing, for you, it only make the Brotherhood evil. I'm seeing a pattern here.

The Brotherhood's egregious lack of intelligence work on discerning the true nature of synths and inability to find a second opinion or any non-hostile synths are what condemns them. In any case, peace with the Legion wouldn't work because the Legion's people are inherently bloodthirsty, which is not the case for the Institute; they're ruthless and unsentimental, but I'm fairly certain they won't leap to violence to solve everything.

This is a thread about the Brotherhood.

all these flavors and why you gotta be hypocritical

Ah, so completely ignore because it directly contradicts your narrow viewpoint. How utterly expected.

The NCR listens to reason more then any other faction. House wants to set up a libertarian dictatorship, Independence is saying "independence for the Mojave" while it's actually a military-forced dictatorship that refuses to call itself a dictatorship, the Legion is a close-minded, imperialistic, sixist, xenophobic, racist, raider-slave army where the only one who has freedom is the big dog on top that tries to pretty it up with crappy logic of "everything is worse and I'm only doing it to fix things"

The NCR goes into the Mojave and helps people. It sets up farms, it sets up trade, NCR supply corps wanted to give food to the locals for free, it rebuilds two power plants and brings wealth to the strip. Saying it needs to be "humbled" by losing the Mojave war is far from true as the war was already being heavily criticized by many of the NCR's citizens and trying to go into another war would just cause more problems until the NCR rebuilds.



On Maxson listening to reason, that's not really all that well founded of an argument. You say he doesn't listen to reason, what is reason? Is reason just what you think it is? Maxson is coming in and taking out raider bases, super mutant bases, feral-infested areas, bringing in protection for the local caravans, building up trade and generally helping the people. Is "listening to reason" going easy on Synths? Synths have yet to prove they are anything more then a tool that is used by the Institute to anyone in the commonwealth the only reason Nick is trusted is because he is pretty obvious about who he is and even then everyone keeps him at an arm's length about things. To most people Synths are nothing more then a human looking Mr. Handy and for all we know that could still entirely be accurate.

Again I've stated this before, the synths could not be A.I.s at all and just be S.I.s, they're built to resemble actual personalities but can't actually break their coding just like the S.I.s in Old World Blues. Should we consider the S.I.s as people just because they have personalities? Just because they want to be free doesn't mean a thing, that could be a personality quirk or a glitch in their programming plus once they are free they're injected with fake lives, fake memories.

You said the BoS don't think with reason or can't be reasoned with but you don't say what "listening to reason" is or why your idea of reason is the one that tops all, you're working of "reason" is based on little information of what a Synth is (something we really don't know much about) and your own opinion of what a synth is. It's not wrong but it's not necessarily right is what I'm getting at.


But they don't lack any intelligence of what a Synth is because for all we know what a synth is is exactly what we're given by the BoS and Institute. Nothing but a human-looking Mr. Handy. The Institute isn't bloodthristy no but they're the reason for a lot of pain and misery as well as paranoia in the Commonwealth. The Institute kidnaps and replaces people, the Institute destroyed an entire town, the Institute made everyone afraid of their own neighbors, hell their own family, the Institute made the super mutants (though I don't believe the Brotherhood knows that) and the Institute is responsible for a lot of problems in the Commonwealth.

Except that of course there is no way for the Brotherhood to met a 'true nature' Synth (until Danse is discovered), only the Railroad has access to them (after that they think they are human) and is hostile to the Brotherhood before a shot is fired. The Railroad is the only group that actually could facilitate a change in Brotherhood beliefs that all Gen-3 Synths are a threat.

Synths are the boggymen of the Commonwealth , the merciless killers of innocents, the traitor in your family........given that 99.9% of the population also hates and fear Synths, why would the Brotherhood even wonder if Synths were actually self aware slaves, to everyone but the Railroad the Gen-3 Synths and teleporting Synth assault groups are the Institute.

Remember that the only contact the Brotherhood and the locals have with Gen-3 Synths is Infiltrators, Coursers and Gen-1 & 2 attacking locations......there is literally no reason why the Brotherhood would even think helpless slave under those conditions......much like your willing to write off the human slaves of the Legion as inherently bloodthirsty. Its a massive leap of faith your expecting for a side in a war to make based on absolutely no evidence, if we had scenes or reports of captured 'true nature' Synths, I could see some reason why the Brotherhood should be expected to change their beliefs, but there is literally nothing in the game that should make the Brotherhood make such a radical switch to pro or at least neutral Synth.

Now perhaps Danse might have been the catalyst for a change, but in and of its self Danse was an shock to the Brotherhood that one of their most prized members could prove to be a Synth who entered their ranks with a created personality........its more likely that it would lead to a hardening of their position on the Gen-3 Synths.

Your experience in the game is not the Brotherhood's experience, their experience with Synths is 100 % hostile (okay 99.9% with Danse) and there is little reason to expect them to delve into the metaphysics of whether Synths are really people or not. Do you also regard the vast majority of the Commonwealth population in the same manner because they are right there to congratulate you on a job well done in dealing with the Gen-3 Synth menace.

Except that the very first words that come out of Arthur's mouth is..."I care about them, you know?"


He's a lot more like Lyons than people give him credit for. He's young, brash, and hard-headed. But he does care about wastelanders and humanity as a whole. He just so happens to care about his family more which applies to jyst about every human being ever.

God bless Arthur Maxson; he and Preston are the only leaders that care.

In other words:


God bless Arthur Maxson; he is the only interesting leader that cares.

http://i.imgur.com/ktsBLxA.jpg

No escape.

I welcome this fresh hell of radiant questing I have entered into.

I got three quests the last time I tried to talk to him......never again Preston, never again.

Lol, that's funny [censored]

There's a reason Preston lives at the Castle in my current game.

... and I don't.

If you like helping synths, there really isn't a good faction our there. The BOS has returned to what it always was, Lyons' chapter was merely a historical oddity. Do I think it's sad that the BOS curls back into itself? Sure. I'm mostly confused about why they think synths are such a threat to all mankind, they are far less dangerous than nukes in any case. My personal theory is that the Lone Wanderer kicked them out of the Capital Wasteland and they are picking a fight with the Institute to boost morale.

Synths have done nothing but cause problems for the people of the Institute and the fact it's common knowledge that Synths escape the Institute it shows that even the Institute can't keep them under control. That's why the BoS view them as dangerous. Also no, the Lone Wanderer didn't do anything of the sort or else there would be hints, there is more to say that the Brotherhood controls the Capital Wasteland as an ordenstaat then they were kicked out by one person and hiding this to what, one waster even as they raise through the ranks by altering every journal entry and terminal log in their airship and having every person lie about it doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

I think your looking at it the wrong way. The Brotherhood under Arthur is a middle ground between Lyons and the West Coast. They're still humanitarian, but they haven't lost focus of their original mission and prioritize it over altruism.

The Lore is that apparently under Maxson they are an established state (one of the condolence letters mentions dying for their country) in the CW, so quite the opposite really if anything they are more like the MidWestern Brotherhood with an established state, a standing army, recruitment of wastelanders etc.....not really West Coast at all, which may point to the West Coast finally coming to the decision that they cannot survive much longer on their current path of isolationism given how much they apparently like Maxson anyway.

As to why they are a threat, well its the Knowledge that your best friend could have been replaced by something that doesn't care if you live or die, your mother may have been programmed to remove you in your sleep....hell the Brahmin might be looking at you funny. Its like Invasion of the Body Snatchers with Androids instead of Aliens and if one person is a doppelganger how many more are......can you trust anybody?

Add to that the Railroad reprogramming Synths (to think they are human) and sending them into human communities and when they are eventually discovered you've even more paranoia.

You're a much more lenient person than I.

I sent him off to some bum-[censored] uninhabited settlement in the middle of nowhere to live out his exile. I considered it a just sentence.