Orcish Mythology

Post » Thu May 26, 2011 9:42 am

I don't think the Altmer would accept the Orcs; I thought the former are considered to be supremacists, even killing their own infants when they're considered not "pure" enough? Maybe the Orcs will remain on their own or will continue to cooperate with the remnants of the Empire.

The Altmer have no problem taking advantage of the Goblins. I suspect that a similar situation would arise with the Orcs; only slightly elevated.
They wouldn't accept them as equals or even as a part of their society, but as lesser, subservient soldiers, maybe.
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Laura-Lee Gerwing
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 5:16 am

As it is today, demonising your opponent was a popular tactic back then too.

Just to add, the origin of the word 'Barbarian' was because of a joke by the Romans that all they said was 'Bar bar bar bar bar.'
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Siobhan Thompson
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 3:53 am

Just to add, the origin of the word 'Barbarian' was because of a joke by the Romans that all they said was 'Bar bar bar bar bar.'


Greeks, I heard, originally (forget where so I might be wrong).Romans used it after they adopted a lot of Greek culture. Both used it to describe foreigners because they couldn't speak their language.

Not sure if the Romans called the Greeks barbarians though.
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Sammygirl500
 
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Post » Wed May 25, 2011 8:47 pm

Greeks, I heard, originally (forget where so I might be wrong).Romans used it after they adopted a lot of Greek culture. Both used it to describe foreigners because they couldn't speak their language.

Not sure if the Romans called the Greeks barbarians though.

Yeah, it was the Greeks (barbaroi), and no, the Romans wouldn't have applied it to them.
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Zosia Cetnar
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 12:03 am

Just to add, the origin of the word 'Barbarian' was because of a joke by the Romans that all they said was 'Bar bar bar bar bar.'

No, actually, Barbum is the Latin word for beard.
The Roman military made their soldiers shave because beards can get in the way, while the less organized/civilized armies did not.

Just became a way to easily identify enemies/less civilized peoples.
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Nicole M
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 4:51 am

No, actually, Barbum is the Latin word for beard.
The Roman military made their soldiers shave because beards can get in the way, while the less organized/civilized armies did not.

Just became a way to easily identify enemies/less civilized peoples.


Sorry to nitpick, but are you sure? IIRC, Latin for 'barbarian' is 'barbarus', which is derived from Greek. I don't think it could be derived from 'barbum', though I'm too rusty to say for sure.
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bimsy
 
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Post » Wed May 25, 2011 5:58 pm

Sorry to nitpick, but are you sure? IIRC, Latin for 'barbarian' is 'barbarus', which is derived from Greek. I don't think it could be derived from 'barbum', though I'm too rusty to say for sure.

Wikipedia says you right.
Darn, the only thing I learned in Latin was a lie.
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Jessica White
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 8:36 am

To put this back on topic, I've just noticed that http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor-full indicates that Trinimac comes back at the end of the kalpa.
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A Dardzz
 
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Post » Wed May 25, 2011 10:12 pm

Wikipedia says you right.
Darn, the only thing I learned in Latin was a lie.

It's a common misconception, and one that's easy to make in light of our modern word "barber".

SilentColossus, good catch.
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Micah Judaeah
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 3:55 am

Have we actually had any indication of the Altmer's relationship with the Orcs.
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Sasha Brown
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 8:33 am

Have we actually had any indication of the Altmer's relationship with the Orcs.


Don't think so. However, orcs appear to be accepted in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-aldmeri-dominion, but that might habe been Imperial propaganda.

"Falinesti

The walking city of the Bosmer king, Falinesti is south in the summer and north come Hearth Fire. It is the largest of Valenwood graht-oaks, whose magic was invoked at the dawn of recorded history. The Camaron throne is somewhere in the highest branches, as are numerous other natural dwellings. Wood Elves climb about its surface like termites, or carefully swing from level to level by means of thorny vines. Humans have generally been too unsettled by the city to stay there long, though Great Apes and Orcs are common. The Thalmor has decided to change the capital of Valenwood from Falinesti to Elden Root for the duration of the Aldmeri Dominion."
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Arnold Wet
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 3:15 am

Don't think so. However, orcs appear to be accepted in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-aldmeri-dominion, but that might habe been Imperial propaganda.

What makes you single this out as propaganda, when the entire book is propaganda? Orcs are all over Tamriel... does YH say it's propaganda?
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Heather M
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 4:10 am

What makes you single this out as propaganda, when the entire book is propaganda? Orcs are all over Tamriel... does YH say it's propaganda?


I don't think it is. But orcs weren't liked much back then and it might be the Imperials trying to say "these elves hang out with orcs. Can they be anymore depraved?"
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jessica sonny
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 2:27 am

I think it's saying that too. The author probably ignored the huge populations of Orcs in Cyrodiil.
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Deon Knight
 
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Post » Wed May 25, 2011 9:34 pm

I think it's saying that too. The author probably ignored the huge populations of Orcs in Cyrodiil.


The Imperials were slaughtering the orcs at the time, and treated them as brainless monsters only slightly higher than goblins. If the Bosmer really did accept orcs, the Imperials would take it as a sign that the Bosmer are just as brutal and "evil" as the orcs.
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Max Van Morrison
 
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Post » Wed May 25, 2011 9:22 pm

OK, so he ignores the slaughter of large populations of orcs. Either way.
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Calum Campbell
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 1:17 am

OK, so he ignores the slaughter of large populations of orcs. Either way.
The first PGE wasn't written for the late 3rd era. There would have been no orcs in Cyrodiil at the time.
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emily grieve
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 12:29 am

Unlikely, what makes you think there weren't orcs in Cyrodiil? Do its boarders repel orcs? There is no source saying they weren't in Cyrodiil, but there is http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Father_Of_The_Niben that says there were, as early as the Merethic.


Edit: orc myth: Boethia eats Trinimac, like each world is eaten by Time. Sep/Lorkhan is the hunger that drives the cycle. Malacath is the refuse. Mundus was formed by the refuse of old worlds. So do the orcs want to build a new god from nebulous Malacath? Do they have their own plans for a Paradise? Maybe that god/plane looks like Trinimac, by the time it's finished. Trinimac's always thrown away. Their god and world are always refused.
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victoria gillis
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 11:07 am

unlikely? They were "kill on sight" by most of the world. Tiber Septim hated them, along with the bretons and redguards who have waged genocidal wars against them. These people were considered nothing more than mindless beasts and a bigger version of the goblin. Also, that book you linked looked to have been written during Oblivion, which was after the Warp of the West. By that time, the orcs were accepted. Before, which was when the first PGE was made, they were hated. The only source of information about the orcs was http://imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-pig-children during the days pre-Warp of the West.
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Pumpkin
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 7:38 am

The book was written in the late Merethic, and probably translated in the 3rd. However, the book makes it clear that the orcs are despised, which means that they were likely wiped out by the Aldmeri settlers. I wouldn't say that there were no orcs at all in Cyrodiil, but they certainly weren't accepted, and as such any populations were probably small and ostracized.

Hoon Ding, I like your signature ;)
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WYatt REed
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 6:12 am

Very well. I'm only saying, the author's a chauvinist, for ignoring the orc "problem" in his country, so he can speak with authority on the orc problem in other countries. I'd rather talk about orc mythology.

Thanks, I made it all by myself.
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Melissa De Thomasis
 
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Post » Wed May 25, 2011 9:59 pm

This is a bit old, but still on the first page, so I feel justified bumping it.

This is not lore supported at all, just sort of extrapolated out from lore in what I feel is a reasonable way. It's basically what Orsimer culture is like in my brain up until I'm proven wrong by official sources.
I've bolded the bits that deal specifically with religion.


Orsimer are traditionally a nomadic, pastoral culture centered around a shaggy centipede-like livestock animal. When the centipede is young, it is about sheep-sized and is used for "wool" and "milk." Later in its life cycle it is bull-sized, loses its coat, and excretes an acidic slime which allows it to burrow for warmth in the chilly mountainous regions it shares with its masters. The Orsimer use the animal at this stage to mine for metals without permanent infrastructure. At full advlt size, the beasts are larger than elephants and too dangerous (think cape buffalo or hippopotamuses) to be kept as livestock. Herders release the worms as they approach this stage, but the creature's relationship with the Orsimer doesn't end. Troops and hunting parties track them across the mountains for weeks; a worthwhile endeavour as the meat, coat, organs, and bone-like proboscis can sustain a community's needs for months. Even the massive, steaming corpses are used as warm shelters against the alpine snows.

The Orsimer themselves are organized loosely into bands or troops. These groupings, equivalent to a town or city in more permanent cultures, are very fluid. Comparable to Chimpanzee behaviour, individuals pass between groups, splinter into new troops, or merge into larger bands based on the needs at hand. All bands, though, are part of a single clan-like grouping called a Thing, and contact between the Things is kept fairly arm's-length. Each Thing occupies a different region and is visibly distinct, like human ethnicities. They are Thing Wrothgar from High Rock and the Reach, Thing Dragontail from Hammerfell, Thing Baanche from Valenwood, and Thing Mauloch from the Velothi Mountains. Every few years, Electors from every band and troop come together in a meeting of the Thing to vote on issues affecting the entire tribe. While within the smaller bands there is no official law and they are usually ruled by strongman chieftans, the Thing at large is highly democratic. Electors are like the citizen voters of Athens, but instead of using land-owning or gender as the criterion of citizenship (the former is useless for nomads, and the latter would be unthinkable to the gender-equal Orsimer), merit is key. When an Orsim has performed some feat of battle, hunting, engineering, craftsmanship, or even magic or poetry, she is proclaimed by her peers, the priesthood, or by vote in the Thing, and becomes an Elector. It is normal for young Orsimer, on coming of age, to be ceremonially exiled from the community alone or in small groups, not to return until they have completed some quest. In practice, many of these youths filter back into the bands as vote-less plebeian, form their own outcast bands, or find religion (or opportunity) in the wilderness and become priests.

Orsimer religion, unique in Tamriel, centers on a single all-powerful god, Malacath/Malak/Mauloch/Trinimac. To the Orcs he embodies their two most important intertwined values: the experience of being cast out and unwelcome, and the strength to overcome said experience. All Orsimer are ritually exiled in their youth, and though Orcs now fill the ranks of the Imperial Legion, they were once feared and hated by nearly all other races. The self-identity of the race is similar to that of Jews or Roma, as long-suffering wanderers always turned away. And so the Orsimer must be self-reliant, physically strong, and mentally acute. The greatest Orcs, who have achieved on such a level as their name is known by all, are enshrined as immortal, saint-like attendants in Malak's realm. These demigods are the only other figures in the Orsimer religion, and hold an important role in naming conventions. Though outsiders assume Orsimer surnames are simple patronymics, with gro-(son of) or gra-(daughter of) appended to the father's given name, this is not quite the case. Gro and gra do literally mean son and daughter, but they refer to a metaphorical parent: a famous ancestor. This ancestor is the greatest figure in the Orc's personal family tree, generally a sainted semi-mythical culture hero who is said to have invented writing or killed a Daedric Prince. Whether a new saint overrides the achievements of her ancestor and becomes the new name for her family, or which partner in a marriage takes the other's name, is decided through a complex web of saintly rankings maintained by the priests. This embodies the Orsimer fixation on personal achievement, but is also a great source of anxiety. Take, for example, the descendants of Gortwog gro-Nagorm. Though they are perhaps the most powerful family in the entire race, it weighs heavily that none will likely surpass Gortwog and have their name carried forward.

The priesthood is focussed largely on scholarship and magic as leading worship has no place in the Orsim faith. In keeping with the obsession with self-reliance and being cast out, prayer must be performed completely alone. Similarly, priests find their calling when Malak presents himself to them during their coming-of-age exile, and each has his own wildly varying version of dogma. Think of something between a rabbinical scholar and a radical fundamentalist imam. That said, religion among the Orsimer, especially in Orsinium, has begun to divide into two loosely-connected schools of thought. The first and more traditional school holds that Malak created the Orsimer in his image, and led them into the mountains to avoid the torments of the other races. The newer school, championed by Gortwog, draws on some Altmer and Imperial scholarship which suggests that Malacath was once the Meric demigod Trinimac, corrupted (and his people with him) by the Daedric Prince Boethiah. This school is more supportive of interaction with the other races and integration into Tamrielic society. However, the Trinimac story suggests a sort of possible salvation by worshipping Trinimac and becoming Mer once again, a concept seen as self-loathing and heretical by its opponents. The latter school is taken to further extremes by the most distant clan in the Orsim Diaspora, Thing Mauloch, who see Trinimac-worship as just as unforgivable as settling in an unmoving city. Among these eastern Orcs, already distinct in their dark skin and reddish eyes, there is a widespread fundamentalist sect which seeks to embody the Exile God further by setting themselves apart. They keep their heads bald and their beards unshaven and so their faith is always visible and separate (although ironically, it becomes difficult to tell them apart). This sect claims direct descent from Malak and, since no mortal Orc could ever match his achievement, every member is named gro- or gra-Malak.


If the Orsimer are like the Jews, then Orsinium is their Israel. The Orcish capital is a novelty in this age-old society. Though Orsinium is not self-sufficient and relies heavily on trade with the caterpillar-oriented elements of Orsimer society, it has largely eschewed the nomadic hunter-gatherer-pastoral way in favour of agriculture and urban life. The natural Orsimer proficiencies in mining, craftsmanship, and engineering are emphasized even over warrior skills. Obsessed with personal achievement and averse to oversight and moderation, Orsinium has become a sort of Galt's Gulch free-for-all where ever-higher towers are built in the image of the old mountain homes. Though these towers and all of the engineering marvels of the city are often far ahead of Tamriel at large, they are just as often slapped-together patchworks. Deadly collapses, fires, and explosions are common. Envisioned by Gortwog gro-Nagorm as a homeland for all of his people, Orsinium carries on the democratic tradition of the Things into a Parliament. Each of the four Things has an equal number of delegates to the Parliament, but the local Thing Wrothgar dominates city politics. Thing Mauloch has refused to participate in the Orsinium project whatsoever and sends no delegates, though their seats in the parliament (along with city districts and Thing palaces) are maintained, empty, in their name. As nomads with fluid group dynamics, Orsimer have no loyalty to land or any sort of group identity other than immediate family, the wider Thing, and to some small degree, the Orsimer race. There is nothing of importance at any level between, and this combines with the self-reliant nature of the Orcs to create a widespread distrust of institutions and political parties. Instead, every delegate to the Parliament is expected to stand as an individual candidate. The political results are as chaotic as one would expect.

Reasoning: The shaggy caterpillars are taken from the Pocket Guide 1st ed. The Orc homelands are assumed from various sources. The rest just springs from other facts or feelings from the games and a million other lore sources. Outcasts, strength, self-reliance, personal achievement, make good armour, a big scrap metal castle (in Daggerfall), lots of female warriors and stuff.
Interestingly, it makes the Orsimer the only race in Tamriel with 1 ) a single god, B ) democracy, iii ) complete gender equality. Some sort of combination of American Plains Indians with American Liberal Capitalism, with some Judaism thrown in for good measure, and a Sikh-like religious sect (Malak instead of Singh).
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Thema
 
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Post » Wed May 25, 2011 11:06 pm

snip

phew, you've put a lot of thought into this. Excellent stuff; I like your ideas.
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Claire Jackson
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 12:43 am

you've put a lot of thought into this.


If you think this is bad, it gets ridiculous when it comes to Bosmer. I need help.
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Trent Theriot
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 2:17 am

I like the description of Orsinium, especially. The effete orcs dress to offset their opponents with outrageous pomp you find in no other court in Tamriel.
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Rich O'Brien
 
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