After playing Bloodmoon, I learned there are indeed native tribes of Nords...

I have a question...

Are the civilized Nords and Orcs in Oblivion only civilized because they were brought up in that province?

Or are most Nords in Skyrim barbarian viking-esque peoples?? And Are Orcs in their native land all barbarians too? I've been confused on this... Thanks!

being a lover of the Universe of Warhammer, I'm not exactly used to seeing an Orc dressed in the attire of a butler...

Hate to say I'm pretty ignorant on that subject. But I'd suggest reading http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/ and maybe even http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/.

Luy,

The Nords are far from a barbaric peoples. The Atmorans from whom the Nords descend had established a great civilization during the late Merethic and early first ages and were greatly superior to their Nedic counterparts. Cyrodiilic culture is, in fact, derived from the culture of the Nords, especially so in Colovia. Read the first and third editions of the Pocket Guide to the Empire: they provide a summary of Nord culture which should sufficiently disprove the myth of barbarity.

Orcs are a different matter. While they do have one cultural center, Nova Orsinium, they do not appear to have a cohesive civilization like that of the Nords. While their culture is certainly more "barbaric" then that of the common man, they are perfectly capable of civilized interaction with other races. Their want of a homeland suggests, at least to me, the existence of a true Orc civilization waiting to emerge. A good anolysis of Orc culture is made difficult by the ages of discrimination against them.

It is my hope that this has shed a little light on the matter. Someone more knowledgeable than I should come along shortly.

Try reading this page at the Elder Scrolls wiki:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tamriel:Orsinium

I see...

Will read the pocket guides now, thank you...

Where I come from, Orcs are mean, green, big brutes that wear fur and are so so dumb they throw themselves in catapaults... and pick on the smaller ones.

Not quite the same here.

I learned that when I walked into Castle Skingrad, and saw the Orc in the butler uniform.

Waaaaaggghhhh....

Atmorans had no knowledge of agriculture and had no writing system before Ysgramor. They were barbaric, especially Atmora's extremely harsh conditions that naturally selected individuals who can hunt.

Knight Mariel,

I believe our disagreement arises largely in our definition of "civilization" as well as the general lack of information on pre-migration Atmora. The 'official' criteria for civilizations are as follow. It is important to note that a civilization does not have to have them all (several native American civilizations did not poses a system of writing for example).

Cities: While we do not know of any cities in Atmora, Ysgamor established Saarthal shortly after his arrival, suggesting that the knowledge was already present in their society.
Full-time labor specialization: again, no direct information is available. Again, the Atmoran's ability to build ships and cities suggests that specialization was present.
The ability to produce and store surplus food: No information is available on this. However, I would suspect that the very survival of the Atmorans during the harsh Atmoran winter (coupled with the suggestion of specialization) that they posesed atleast a basic concept of surplus.
The beginning of social control based on a central government and class structures: Leadership by Ysgamor and the civil war in Atmora suggests this was the case.
Trade over long distances: While we have no direct support of trade from Atmora we know of its theoretical possibility given their ability to settle Tamriel.
Writing and a system of notation: none, from what we know.
The beginning of science: some science possibly required to navigate, but any more then that is unknown.

You must also keep in mind that Atmora was not always an uninhabitable wasteland. In the early years of Atmora it might have adequately supported life and lead to the development of a civilization. Atmora's Aldmeri name, Elder Wood, suggests that it was once a fully habitable place.

DAT GIT! WAAAAAAAAGH!

The Elder Scrolls Universe... where the Elves are mortal, the Dwarves are tall, and the Orcs are civilized.

That's almost sig worty

Saarthal could've been an earlier settlement before Ysgramor, building ships, boats, skiffs are not signs of civilization, again they're hunters, blah, blah, blah...

Just to end my contribution this:
"Even before the frost fall, Atmora was apparently not a temperate place. The early Nedic peoples who came from Atmora were hunters with no knowledge of agriculture. A land where every denizen was a predator doubtless insured that only the most brutal and savage survived. It is easy to see how these traits passed the raider men and down to the nature of the Arena of Tamriel."

Yeah, so for anyone who's going to it's out-of-Atmora, hush. I know.

And although A(l)tmora was one of the first kingdoms of the elves, they left a long time ago, leaving humans to become what is described in the 3rd PGE.

Anyway, Knight Mariel, out!

Well orc were actually elves, so I think thats why they are so civilized. The archetipe (or how is it spelled) of orc is a huge brute killing everyone, but the archetype is like that, becouse orc were discriminated and misunderstood.

Alas, I cannot be sigged on that, for someone else said that. I don't remember from whom I heard it...

Knight, Farming is not a prerequisite to "Civilization" in the TES universe. Look at the Bosmer for instance-- No farms to be found anywhere. Hunters? Most assuredly. Civilized? reasonably so.

When dealing with an alien universe, you need to let go of certain conventions that only have meaning here in the real world.

So what about ant farms? Just about any sort of cultivation will do.

Yes, they are barbarians, all of the races ecept us high elves are savages.

You imperials won't be so happy when we break the dragon MWAHAHA! :nuke:

And make the 'Umies heads on their 'pointy sticks', and make da Grots do all da cleanin?

dats 40k for you

I believe the point that knight was trying to strike home, was that Atmoora was so flippin' cold, that you couldnt put a pickaxe in it even if you tried. As a result, nobody grew crops, thus no agriculture, thus no society.

The bosmer don't plant crops either. But are still considered a civilization.


In the same vein that Bosmer might perform animal husbandry to ensure a steady food supply, it is possible that the ancient atmoorans could have performed similar practices. There simply is not any information on the subject.

I was merely pointing out the logical problem with his argument. Nice devil's advocate approach though.

no weird, no. again no. i'm not talking about the bosmer, who happen to borderline between their stronger barbaric natures and civilized faces they sometimes like to put on. they can live in cities like silvenar and falinesti, but they can also leave it if they want to. these are not atmorans.

i'm saying that the conditions in atmora people are extremely harsh that they became a savage, but hardened people (of course all tribes of men are hardened by their life on nirn). fine, agriculture is certainly not a sign of civilization, neither is writing. i realized i failed on that aspect. but, what little is portrayed about atmora in my quote doesn't show a culture that's as sophisticated as modern nords.

i'm bored of this.

does it really matter, I mean there isn't anything wrong with being barbaric...

WTF?

Sigged