You're just being racist.

Into the gate with you! bliviongate:

And most of them were in Oblivion. Most of the people did follow their races stereotype. Imperials all thought they were civilized sophisticated types even if they were poor, Altmer always thought they were better in every way, the Khajiit, well the voice actors ruined the broken english, the Dunmers were racist, Nords were usually fighters and brutish, the Orcs were almost either all warriors and violent, Wood Elves were almost all shifty and sort of stupid, Argonians were almost all vague and mysterious, Bretons were all Breton-like (no real stereotype for them besides being magical), and the Redguards were generally all great fighters or blacksmiths, just like the Orcs.

Edit: And their were a few out of the norm, just like Morrowind. Don't try and nitpick things that didn't actually happen in the game, at least abuse Oblivion for what it actually did wrong.

Ok i have no idea about all this robot stuff, curses, or w.e you two are arguing about but i will respond to the original post a add a few comments about some of the stuff ive read.

I say orcs should be playable because sometimes you just wanna be a feared barbarian and beat the [censored] out of everything. That said orc NPC's should be feared! Sure a orc could be out of the ordinary and try and start up a book business, but the only people who should buy their books are orcs because normal orc-fearing people shouldnt go into their shop, and since most orcs wouldnt go into town to pick up a book the business would shut down and thats the end of that. I'm not saying orcs cant be intelligent, but they are going to stick together because if its only been 40 years or w.e since they were accepted into the Empire people are still going to fear and mistrust them. I dont want to see a orc jsut wandering around the noble area because with the fear and mistrust i'd think he's liable to get stabbed in the back by some stupidly brave guy who's family was killed by orcs or who brother or sister or w.e was killed by orcs 40 years ago while he was still a little boy or w.e, there are still plenty of racist people today and blacks were'nt persecuted for thousands of years, they weren't discriminated against for nearly as long as orcs. So i guess what im trying to say is, either they have their own little section in towns or they make their own communities and for the most part they should be agressive to strangers and non-orcs, maybe not violent but aggressive non the less.

Now as to the playing to their strengths. I say yea they should, if you are naturally strong and aggressive you're not going to sit still in a stuffy old library and read or study. You're going to get out and kick ass. Or pound your anger away into a piece of metal. And yes their are exceptions to every rule but i think unless the next TES is hundreds of years later then orcs should be stereotyped for the most part. While they can break out of the stereotype, like women being good for only housesitting and what not, you cant break out of your race. You cant tame a beast, heh for instance those idiot tiger trainers, or that idiot kid that was throwing pine cones at a tiger in a zoo, they got their stupid asses eaten.

Oh and while some woman may not be able to lug a man out of a burning house, some women could carry one easily and not all men could lug a man out either, i sure as hell couldnt, it takes training and hard work, stereotyping between sixes is stupid IMO, some women are smarter then men and some are dumb bimbos, and some men are stronger than women some are smarter but weaker (aka me ) and to the strength is dispproportional to intelligence thing, while that is not necissarily true, if you arent born smart, or athletic, you can only work one way or the other, you can be strong or smart but not both, you could be average in both, and even if you are born smart or athletic, you might not work on increasing the other, and spending too much time on one could lead to detriment in the other, so for the most part i think it is true

I lost you after book business.

Ok for the book business, i assume u mean the second paragraph couple sentences in. Im saying while an orc could set up a bookstore, the normal people who have been taught to fear and/or hate orcs for thousands of years would not go into that store unless it was the only one nearby, now other orcs might go into it, except for the fact that the bookstore owner is not like a normal orc and so most orcs probably wouldnt go into the bookstore, hence the bookstore has no customers and goes out of business.

If u need any other translations just ask ill be back on in the morning. Well since its already 3 am it'll probably be more like afternoon when i get up.

It makes sense.

They were pretty much monsters in the wilderness for ages. 40 years isn't long enough for them to be walking down the street in the Imperial City without being chased down and beaten to death by ignorant locals.

Since that is not the case in Oblivion, you are wrong. Even in Daggerfall nobody attacked orcs walking down the street. Tamriel doesn't have to abide by the rules of out world, it hasn't, and orcs being accepted is canon and has been canon for a while. They have been accepted, civilized members of society since Morrowind, and they aren't going to just go back to being generic evil enemies when they already can walk down the street in the Imperial City and hold a civilized conversation with anyone without any hostile tones. The only reason that being persecuted for years bit of lore exists is so Bethesda can have Tamriel be more than Middle Earth without having to hear "it broke lore, casual games, the newest game is a scourge to series and a lore breaker, yada, yada, yada" more than they already have. The orc stereotype won't return and the reason they aren't persecuted anymore is because Bethesda "broke lore" because the old lore was a generic regurgitation of old DnD stereotypes.

No it doesn't
There might be the ocasional riot or lynching but most people wouldn't unless law and order had totally broken down. This is true even in parts of the world with long-standing animosities
And 40 years is certainly long enough for orcs to have been born and lived all their lives as citizens and think of themselves as Imperials just like 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants usually assimilate to the language and culture of the country they are living in, unless there is a large population of them in an area, sufficient for them to form a community within a community or be ghettoized depending on the degree of choice there was in that large population in a small area forming

I agree. But, the reason they didn't get attacked when walking down the streets is because they couldn't even get into the cities without being beaten to death by the town guards. You clearly haven't played much Daggerfall. Through the whole game, they where one of the biggest enemies. The amount of crap Orc took shouldn't be forgotten so easily, by either side.

No, I played much of Daggerfall. Orcs once attacked me as I exited a building in the Daggerfall(the city), and no one cared. NPCs didn't seem to notice, and I know that was due to technological limitations, but the Orcs still walked through the streets and no one cared, despite their status as enemies. I know they were supposedly persecuted at the time and regarded as enemies, but NPCs never chased them down in riots if they were inside a city. As for the crap they endured, again, that is only due to TES series' DnD-ish origins. Bethesda basically retconned the whole thing and they had to give an excuse(Orsinium gaining respect under Gortwog; other respect being gained by serving in the Imperial Legion) or else people would have screamed "omg, Bethesda betrayed us and broke lore, let's protest on the forums some more about the newest game". The days of orcs being persecuted(or rather the days of orcs being growling barbarians who attack on sight) are gone because Bethesda decided to separate Tamriel from Middle Earth. Tensions existing is fine, but making Orcs unplayable again(what this thread is about) is ridiculous and will never happen.

Yea most of this thread is not about the OP but more of are orcs barbarians or should they be civilized,, maybe if the next one is like 100 years later, they could be some civilized some tribal, but sinces oblivion was so close in time people are arguing they shouldnt be nearly as friendly as they were. As it is this thread is really off topic. But on topic orcs should stay playable, however u want to play them, you could be the odd orc out and own a bookstore or you could be the average tribal barbarian, its a game, play it how u want and stop trying to limit my choices damn it.

This isn't like on Earth where two peoples are coming to peace.

Orcs were considered less than people. They were considered beasts. And a lot of orcs are probably Imperialized by now, but Imperial citizens are still going to be conditioned to be afraid. Even the current generation, I think.

Because they were raised to hate orcs.

So because they're green they couldn't possibly have good taste in clothes?

Kind of.

I would have to say that I don't see the problem with Orcs being both playable and brutish/hostile. Maybe the two seemed to conflict more in Oblivion since the Bandits and Marauders have their races randomized, but it was clear Orcs tended towards savagery in Morrowind where all bandits were hand-placed. In Morrowind, most of the Orcs in the game were hostile marauders who lived out in the wilderness, attacking players on sight, but, as was discussed before, some broke the stereotype and lived in cities as friendly NPCs. What I get from the OP is that he doesn't have much experience with past Elder Scrolls games, as he probably didn't know about the Orcs in Morrowind (or else this complaint would have been Oblivion-specific) or that Orcs have been playable since Arena (so the phrase "remained unplayable" is completely inaccurate).

Besides, there's no need for there to be yet another savage, unplayable race in Oblivion. There are already Dremora, Goblins, Ogres, Land Dreughs (although I don't know if they're even partially sentient; they may just be animals; it's addressed in Oblivion but not answered) and potentially Trolls. Although Trolls may not seem to be sentient at first, the easter egg of the dead bridge troll with a note and the fact that the Azklan Trolls at Veyond have a leader, I would say that Trolls are at least partially sentient. Furthermore, based on the OP's complaints of Goblins being weak, I draw the conclusion he didn't play Morrowind, or he'd recall the ridiculously powerful Goblins in Tribunal. But I digress.

My point is that Oblivion has enough quasi-sentient unplayable hostile races as it is without taking a previously interesting and playable race and turning it into some crappy, generic, overused and cliched stereotype just to add another.

Which is much the same as how blacks were regarded by whites in the Southern US until relatively recently and yet in the last 50 years the position of blacks in the Southern US has dramatically changed.

I'm not arguing about making Orcs uplayable, this thread has delved into how Orcs should be portrayed. Orcs should be playable.

And the whole "Middle Earth" comparison thing is so overused. Sure, getting away from that is fine, but not all of a sudden in one quick swoop! It should take at least two games to get Orcs civilised. I should have had a main quest about the Orcs becoming friendly with the empire. Since that's out of the window, I want to at least see the tension. You've said that Tension is fine, so why are you arguing with me?

That's different, as I said. Because it's two groups of people on Earth.

It's not like black people were hiding in dungeons with axes, attacking white people when they went down there to retrieve an enchanted ruby for some noble. Plus, there's the whole civil rights movement thing, which never happened in Tamriel.

Stop with the silly blacks comparisons. Think Tamriel Empire = Roman Empire and Orcs = Barbarians (mostly Germanic and Celtic). The interaction between those fits way better.

If you've ever played Morrowind with a character who's got a high Personality and decent Speechcraft, those Orc barbarians in the wilds rarely attack you. If you're perceived as a possible threat to them, either due to low Personality or a drawn weapon in their face, then they'll often go after you. The ones in town were a bit more civil, but still "unpolished". That fit their background as a recently civilized race, where they were legally "on par" with the men and other mer, but still viewed with more than a little skepticism and caution by most.

I thought we gave fishysticks in this forum?

In which case their path to acceptability is even clearer, through military service. Even by the late Republic citizenship had been extended to the whole of Cisalpine Gaul (now Northern Italy) and Lucius Cornelius Balbus (an Iberian of Punic descent) became Counsel in 40 BC, having only become a citizen around 71 BC.

I suspect their value as soldiers was important to Uriel Septim, since Orsinium was not a strong state and needed the Empire as much as the Empire needed loyal soldiers.

Well said.

That's something I agree with.

However I still think orcs are different because they've always been regarded as monsters and never another "people." For their relationship with other mer and men, see the relationship between the early neolithic peoples and the neanderthals.

The nords of Skyrim have used orcs in their raiding parties. I mean, where's the fun in your son's coming of age raid on Morrowind without a couple of green friends to join in?