I think I would just cut the svckah down like the orc filth he is.

His daughter will protect him, she can hold off more than one ogre.

Um... Stereotyping things makes them unique?

Whats next playable goblins? Well there goes the neighborhood. Or maybe you could play as a Paladin Daedra.

I think having intelligent and cultured Orcs is great, it proves that a person is what they make of themselves and not just their genetics.

Just because this is a game doesn't mean it cannot challenge the player's perceptions, in fact I think the best way to break open closed minded individuals is to let them explore the idea that race/creed/colour is irrelevant in a setting that is obviously not real.

Stereotypes are limiting, closed things, they prevent imagination. A game that relies on stereotypes is weak.

Uhhh, kay?
I'm glad you've expressed your opinion but, what exactly do you want us to do about it? LOTR Orcs are not Tamriel Orcs. Different race, different universe, different Orcs. :shrug:

So instead of wanting something different, like in TES, you basically just want Orcs to be unimaginative cliched stereotypical barbarians...There are like 50 Lord of the Rings games for that.

You have to remember, Orcs are elves, and were once beautiful ones at that. And then their leader got eaten by a god and that's why all the orcs are now so ugly...

Or something along those lines, I haven't read up on Orc lore in a while.

Sounds about right, but LOTR orcs are also courrupted elves so that argument doesn't help, although Sauron was not a god. I suppose the main difference between the two would be that the original orcs chose to follow thier leader, whereas LOTR orcs were deliberatly created as minions for a dark lord. But that just backs up my point that Tamriel is a place of choices, you are what you make of yourself not just what you are born.

I agree that there shuold be some character traits that unite each race, but stereotypes are almost never true (and usually only the good ones are true).

But OB is in opposition to lore a bit. Orcs are supposed to be cursed, loathsome, pariah folk. Where's the curse in OB? Some are a little gumpy but mostly they're commical.

I'm talking mainly about Morrowind.

Play Daggerfall if you want orcs as pariahs, since the events of that game the world has changed a little, Orcs are finally recognised as people, so it makes sense that they aren't just barbarians and thugs. Even when Orcs were considered as lesser creatures thier armour was prized and praised as excellent workmanship, a race that can make armour that good can certainly produce a few exccentric and intelligent individuals within a generation of assimilation.

Very true!

Alright, before arguing over what orcs should be, lets refresh on our Tolkien history. LotR orcs are NOT:

-ugly green things - encyclopedia of arda has them as "squat and swathy," I personally don't even remember that from the books. the green orc is a much later invention.
-made by Sauron/Saruman - they were elves, like any other, but they were captured and brainwashed by Melkor (Morgoth) before the Valar found out about the elven awakening.
-corrupted - as stated above, Melkor just scared them and made them think the world is evil

Orc in Tamriel, by contrast, are the followers of Trinimac, a hero to all elves. Trinimac got eaten and pooped out by Boethia - when this happened, his followers also changed. A far cry for being abducted from the shores of their birth-lake before the advent of the sun. sure, you could call both "corrupted elves" but it is only a surface similarity.

There is also nothing in lore to say that all orcs are loathsome, angry, barbarian, etc. Many are warriors, and many live in the wilderness, but they also have a city state (Orsinium), technology, and a civilization that is quite advanced. Saying "all orcs should be _____" is wrong, because race does not determine ones character.

Yeah, it's like saying all back men are thugs and 'gangsta's...

Yay for taking away content!

What's wrong with you?

Only problem I have is if Orcs are 'normalized' that doesn't leave a playable race that 'is' outcast. I don't want a harmonious world. I want Argonians and Khajiits to hate Dumner because they enslaved them. I want Nords and Imperials to hate Alrmer/Ayleids (AKA wild elves) because they enslaved 'them'. I want Khajiits and Altmer to hate Bosmer because their obnoxious. And I want everyone to hate Orcs 'cause they're cursed.

Orcs? Barbaric? Uncivilized? Have you seen any of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Lord_Rugdumph_gro-Shurgak in oblivion?

And why do we need an outcast race, exactly? A little interracial tension is a good thing, I agree, but it has to be shown though NPC perspectives (Dunmer talking about how betmer are not human, Imperials hating on orcs, etc.) so that it is presented as an opinion. If you make every orc barbaric and every khajiit a thief you're presenting opinions as absolute truths, which is shallow and, for lack of a better word, racist.

People need to chill.

Its really about Orcs being better opponents to fight than to converse with.

I sometimes hope for interesting creatures to fight in Oblivion cos the setup is so dull.. ie wolves and bears.

I try to stretch out fights I have with the dreugh and minotaur's cos they are cooler enemies to fight... more epic, not killed in a few chops.

Sure there are Orc marauders to fight... but I think a complete overhauling of TES orc is in order.

Make them more savage, and tone down the illuminous green skin tone. Make them a more murky green. It could be so awesome.

Plus I really cant stand that orc shopkeeper in cheydinhal who tells me to buy something or GTFO.

Personally I liked the diversity within the specific ethnicities themselves. The Dunmer were not just all xenophobic and bitter. Some were merchants, adventurer/explorers, or the tribal Ashlanders which were very different from camp to camp. Even the Mabrigash which more or less get killed on sight. In respect to their refusal of a patriarchal pinning down of their talents and their beliefs, it is understandable why they do what they do.

Never could understand "cookie cutter" thought processes with regard to fantasy. Even using Tolkien's lore as a reference. His inspiration was his own xenophobia due to the wars of his time, and the usual perpetual hereditary mindset that "all things good are light, all things evil are dark"(with I daresay an inclusion of peoples as well to his mind). The Silmarillion, which reads like Bible parallel, is frought with this. This is sad, because in life, it just isn't so. A lion in real life may have inspired artistic illusions of greatness and fealty, but in nature they are aggrandizing, lazy, fiercely territorial and when it comes to genetics, quite...determined. Wolves are relugated to fear stricken assumptions of depravity, yet they form fiercely loyal social groups, will often tend to each others young and that includes orphaned young. They share the food, even after dominance, and have lovely singing voices, that actually harmonize aside from individual howls. Things like this should bleed into fantasy because of fantasy's very nature. Wonder.

Orcs should be diverse, because aside from their ferocity, they breed, fashion weapons, armor, and clothing. They have language, and heritage, so that implies at least a rudimentary culture. Same for all the Elves, and all the Humans. I love that one of the mods has a Nord that says..."first chance I get, I am moving somewhere warm..". Or those few quests or features that show the different peoples having different mates than their own kind.

Like I said in the other thread, fighting and killing those things that we percieve as ugly, brutal, visceral are no brainers. The human condition is hard wired that way. Why not a change of pace? Do the vampires all look like demon fodder when they attack you? No, they don't. Some are downright comely, like the Nord Vampire that jumped my charater in Balmora, who I barely missed as she passed by were it not for her glowing eyes. A great many things that are comely can be quite leathal. At least the Orcs that attack in Morrowind will tell you outright that "your bones will be my dinner!".

Next thing you know, we might be hearing about how some do not want women fighters, just preferring them to be in the towns weaving baskets or making dinner. You know, like real life *cough - Tomoe Gozen, Queen Bodicea, Quan-Lin, Granuaile, Elizabeth I, Nanny of the Maroon peoples, Gormlaith, Cleopatra, countless others, cough *.

If you change the Orcs, TES won't be the same. Keep them how they are.

If you want diverse creatures to fight, play Morrowind. If you want diversity in Oblivion, install creature mods or OOO.

Don't completely change a race for lack of creatures to fight. More creatures need to be original instead of bear and wolf.

And do you realize how much it would contradict with lore to change the Orcs to the cliched generic unimaginative unoriginal LotR barbaric enemies?

Orcs should stay a civilized race. While some may adhere to the old stereotypes, some may be more civilized and less barbaric.

Huh...I know it may seem weird to defend a virtual race but that's "a bit" racist. Orcs in Tamriel don't need to be dumb brutes because they are not LotR orcs, which is good in my view since pretty much all RPGs are related and based to some degree on Tolkien's work and I think it's great when devs (Beth's in this case) think outside the box.

+1 to this, in oblivion all races had the same tempers, like, no race was more brutal or uncivilized than another. Hell even nords were pretty normal <.< Not to mention they all shared the same stupid voice acting to make them EVER MORE similar!