Many were but not nearly all of them. Orcs are ten times better civilized then separate from the other races. That's what sets Bethesda apart from stereotype fantasy games.

Exactly. Morrowind/Oblivion wasn't long after Daggerfall. There should still be racism towards the Orcs. They should still be denied work that requires thought. The work they get should be from Warrior Guild's, the legion, heavy lifting, etc. Just think about our society. Racism STILL exists, after all these years of it being made... bad. How long did it take for slavery to be abolished here? An entire race shouldn't be accepted and loved by everyone overnight. I accept that Orcs are elves, but they are stereotyped by everyone else, and it causes them to have to resort to thier stereotype. That's my point.

There is occasionally someone who doesn't care about the stereotype, hence, they will let them farm, clean a house, run a store, or whatever. But, on the most part, everyone sees tham as a brutish race, worth nothing more than Ogres.

Also, every race in Tamriel is stereotyped. How often do you see an Altmer warrior? Races that follow thier strengths are always more unique. It also makes sense for a race to follow thier strengths. Orcs aren't very magically adept. They're strong, and great armourers. They should stick to that. It's like someone training to be a doctor, being awesome at it, and then going on to be a game designer. Two very different jobs, and it will take a long time to learn the latter, and taking the job you're already skilled at gives you instant money, without learning to do the other.

EDIT: Hey, look, I just got my first star! ^_^

Yes, have a cookie :cookie:

Nonsense
Theres a difference between the commonly held stereotype of Orcs held by most citizens of Tamriel and the reality of Tamriel's orcs
I would like to see more prejudice against orcs, places that won't serve them, mothers who drag the children off the street as an orc walks by etc but like most prejucice it would be based on stereotypes rather than reality
MW had an Orc mage, Oblivion didn't. Most orcs in Oblivion were warriors or criminals so it held to the stereotype just as strongly as MW
Arguably there should be more exceptions to the stereotype outside the homeland as theres less pressure to conform to the social norms. An Altmer in Cyrodil works with and lives amongst other races, an Altmer in Summerset Isle can choose to spend all their time amongst their own race

Agreed... and have an extra cookie :cookie: . I would give you a cake but I would be lieing if I said I had one to give.

I loved the Redguard mage in Cheydinhal who understood that his prejudices against certain types of magic would limit his advancement, but still pursued his individual calling. Putting folks in boxes makes for a shallow game.

And there's plenty of racial tension in the game if you listen to people. I loved the way people in Skingrad would tell you that certain orcs were fine people and then immediately mock that "orc social club." And I thought it rather funny when a previous poster complained first that orcs weren't savage enough and then that the orc shopkeeper in Cheydinhal was rude. Stereotyping may be intellectually comfortable, but the price of comfort is a not-very-interesting world view.

how can people say that TES games dont stereotype races in game already. if your a nord or redguard your just assumed to have a natural affinity with weapons and if your a breton or altmer its just assumed that you are a natural magic caster. how exactly would making orcs more brutish (which im in favor of) be any different than that. the whole point of supposedly having all these races is to play from different viewpoints. by definition this requires you to stereotype them.

If you're talking about attributes and skills, all the races are equally stereotyped.

Just because everyone thinks orcs are idiots doesn't mean they're not idiots.

Every now and then, you have an orc who cares about learning, like Sharn gra-Muzgob. But generally, the stereotypes about them are true. It's not because Bethesda is racist against orcs. It's because orcs are idiots, sorry.

And where exactly does it state that? TES does not deal in absolutes, and it shouldn't, either. I'm really amazed at how people insist on stereotyping fantasy races while its long been recognized as a no-no in real life.

It's just what I notice from talking to orcs in the gameworld. I never saw the orcs in TES as representing orcs as a whole, because Warcraft orcs are actually intelligent and spiritual, LOTR orcs are just mindless minions, TES orcs are violent and slow-witted.

It's just how Bethesda made them. Talk to some orcs in Morrowind. Especially the ones in and around Caldera. Bunch of stooges.

I actually think the orcs assimilated too quickly. Even if an orc is rich enough to live in the Imperial City, who would let him?

The Orcs in game did not strike me as over-all stupid. In lore, they have advanced metallurgy (perhaps more advanced than anyone else in Tamriel) and a large city-state to rival Wayrest. Gortwog is as much a politician as he is a warrior, Orcs are found in the Mages Guild and have historians. I really have trouble seeing how you can label a race and a civilization as 'stupid' or 'violent' and claim it is not racist (i.e. "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"

OP's original question was 'should they be playable?'. The answer is yes but Orcs should not be treated as clowns. In OB you have a rude bookseller, a dandy butler, a female Orc obsessed with being a knight, an idiot aristocrat, etc. But all were accepted in society and there was general equality. I don't think Orcs should be treated as stupid but rather shunned by the other races.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_True_Nature_of_Orcs

"the spurned and ostracized", "Despised by everyone", "'The Pariah Folk". Personally I would like to be able to play as an outcast. In the old D&D days if you were an Orc your charisma was so low that you risked disaster everytime you tried to negotiate with someone.

If an Orc wants to live somewhere, who's going to stop him?

More seriously, though: The Empire is styled after the Roman Empire. Which was awfully cosmopolitan as well for its time; as long as you were born a free man in the Empire, and served your duty in the Legion, you were a citizen with full rights. Consequently, they didn't think anything wrong with people from all over the Empire - Moors and Thracians and Egyptians and Syrians and Gauls and whatnot - taking important positions in Rome, up to becoming Emperors themselves (see, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximinus_Thrax or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Arab)

so if its ok to stereotype races for attributes and skill.........why isnt it ok to stereotype their general behavior? if a lot of nords were members of AA then they wouldnt have their mead chugging stereotype they have now. there is a reason that bretons and altmer were stereotyped as mages.......its because more of them engage in the magical arts more so than the redguard or imperials. i figure that the orcs are kind of like the klingons of tamriel, a honor bound warrior society. were their hippy klingons on star trek....sure, but they were a very small minority.

im less concerned with the orcs in imperial city cause by definition you have to be civilized to live in the there but outside of that the orcs should be more aggressive and brutish.

So, by your logic, should killing people in games be a no-no? Should not needing a job to survive be a no-no?

No. TES is a game. Things are different in games. And, besides, real life is a tad bit more advanced than Tamriel's. Racism is a bad thing here. If you look back in our history, stereotyping was normal. Depending on who's minority/majority in an area, and the time period; White people are seen as money grabbing, land destroying people, Black people are seen as slaves who are born to work to death, Chinese people are seen as takeaway shop owners, I could go on. Orcs, I believe, are based on old time Mongolians. Would you expect Ghangas Khan to own a book store? Or to speak polite? No. It's how they are. Mongolians are famous because of this stereotype. It's something that makes them awesome, while, obviously, most weren't probably like this, it's a stereotype they have, and all forms of media portray it, because it's an awesome one with depth. Just like the Orcish one is an awesome one with depth.

I have no problem with in-game racism, as I've already stated. I think it would be wonderful if there was more racial (and geographic) tension. What I don't understand is the necessity by the real life players, that is us, to stereotype a race as "stupid and brutish" or "gay and annoying" or anything else. There is nothing deep about all Mongolians being murdering savages or all orcs being stupid barbarians. It ignores thousands of years of history and more nuance than I can shake a stick at. It removes gameplay opportunities and paints a 2 dimensional view of the world of Tamriel. It doesn't get any more shalow than that, and I simply don't get why people think such shallowness is a good thing. Everyone has problems when Long Blade and Short Blade are combined into Blade, but no one seems to mind a whole race of people being reduced to 1 attribute.

because the difference between humans genetically is less than that of gorrillas in the same family. khajit are not human who are not argonian who are not elves, etc. they are distinct lifeforms with their own genetic structure. thats like saying that saying women cant make good soldiers or firefighters is bad. ok, it sounds politicially incorrect but when you look at basic physiology and facts it pans out. the top 7 percent of women ranked with the bottom 7 percent of men. and that was after additional weeks of conditioning that the men didnt get. same with firefighters. very few women can lug around all that heavy equipment and i dare say none of them (cept xena) could carry a full grown man down a flight of stairs. in self defense courses they teach women specifically to avoid throw down fights with men cause they will lose. they are taught to go for weak spots like the throat and groin for a reason.

Not stupid barbarians. But barbarians, nonetheless. You forget that a race of barbarians can have depth to it. If you stop and look, a lot of barbaric races through history and media have been misunderstood honourable people. Even in TES, pre-Morrowind.

The same can actually be said about the Vikings. Famous for being savage themselves. But, when you stop and look, Vikings have a rich cultural background. Thier gods, sense of honour, hospitality to thier own, etc. You seem to be the one stereotyping, imo.

And I said nothing about all Orcs being barbarians. There should be exceptions, but, on the most part, they should follow thier racial traits. Think about Native Americans when America was first being colonized. To those setting up shop, they appeared to be a bunch of murderous savages, but when you get to know them, thier history and background can be an interesting, in depth story.


Imo, the real problem with Orcs, like most races, are the voices. Oblivion's voices are awful. They don't sound anything like a savage race. They may not actually be savage, but they seem it. The voices don't sound like they should. They sound happy and forgiving. The reason there's been such hatred to the Orcs is because of how they seem to be savages. They don't anymore.

The stupid comment was directed at Squeekers, whose new 'point' I'm not touching with a 10 foot pole.

I think the misunderstanding is in the definition of barbarian. Taken from Merrian-Webster:

1 : of or relating to a land, culture, or people alien and usually believed to be inferior to another land, culture, or people
2 : lacking refinement, learning, or artistic or literary culture

I am using it in both those senses, while you appear to be using it in the more archaic sense to refer to a certain group of people. I would call neither the Vikings nor the Mongolians "barbarians," since both were learned, artistic, and civilized (not to mention they both started a major cultural revolution, the Mongols in China and Vikings in European Russian/Ukraine). I really can't think of a single Earth culture that was truly "barbarian." That is exactly what I'm saying about Orcs: they obviously have art, literature, and learning, and while they are believed to be inferior this is largely just cosmetics and distrust by the peoples of Tamriel (which is OK). They may not have a civilization as cohesive or an empire as large as the Septims or the Altmer, but they aren't simple brutes either. Showing them in positions other than warriors reinforces the fact that no culture is just about killing things and being brutish.

How can you take these both into consideration? They are opposite definitions. The first explains about having different cultures, the second explains about having no culture.

These are also different definitions of the same word. That happens a lot in the english language. Just look at the many swear words.


But neither are they nobles. An Orc would laugh at the idea of wearing fine clothes. A true warrior wears armour! The warrior stereotype can be a good one. There can be culture in a race of warriors.


Squeekers has a good point. Women in our history have often been house wives who look after children, while the men do thier physical jobs, because of physiology. Women are naturally weaker than men. It's a fact. Orcs are naturally stronger than other races, while not being quite as smart. In the same way as men in our past doing the physical work, because it's what they're good at, Orcs should take advantage of thier strength and be warriors, armourers, guards, freelance adventurers, etc. If you look at men, a lot of us are what you could call brutish, due to hormones and stuff. I would imagine Orcs being even more testosterone fuelled than men, making them more brutish than everyone else.

[/science lesson]

Ok, first of all, I don't know if you've been watching the news, but just because someone is a politician doesn't make him smart.

Also, the nomadic steppe people have always had a history of excessive violence and warmongering. They're capable of great things, when a lone genius like Atilla or Chinggis or vercingetorix unites them. But once that leader dies, they all go back to killing each other and society implodes. I know that's a generalization and it's less true today than it was a thousand years ago.

But my point is that some societies have been totally centered around battle and have seen learning as taboo. Obviously some orcs like to learn, but a whole cultural revolution in orc society. In which they all become "civilized" according to tamrielic standards..... actually, you know what, I just changed my mind mid-thought.

That would be cool if orcs and nord berserkers sack the imperial city and then start adopting the dress and culture. That's what the Goths did, actually.

I think I have a bruise from facepalming so hard. Keep digging, son.



Where do you get this from? Orcs tending towards physical strength I can go with because of their relative size, but I have never seen any evidence of less intelligence.

There's a traditional assumption that strength and intelligence are inversely proportional, probably based on the fact that once a society develops 'culture' the physical abilities of its citizens tend to decline somewhat (because technology makes a lot of physical work obsolete, or an 'advanced' society relies on slaves or newly created lower social classes to carry out their labour).

There's also the issue of sterotypes associated with supposedly primitive cultures- that they live in huts and survive by subsistence farming because they are less intelligent or sophisticated than white civilised people who live in tenements and eat processed junk food. It's naive to measure progress and prosperity purely in terms of possessions and material resources- it's perfectly conceivable that a supposedly primitive culture can be more stable and better equipped to fulfil the needs of its members than a supposedly advanced one. It becomes difficult to define barbarism and civilisation under these circumstances.



Good for you. I guess the TES developers have a better imagination than you.

Actually the developers created the orc race in Morrowind and Oblivion and gave them weaker intelligence than other races (besides the nords & redgaurds.) The average intelligence was 40-50 (50 being the altmer and breton). The lowest or least intelligent races were supposedly the nord the redguards and the orcs.

Orcs and redgaurds made up in the endurance field, and Nords made up in strength field.

:wink_smile:

EDIT: In terms of being playable, the whole orc thing is rather new if you think about it..They've only been playable in Morrowind and Oblivion. I say, give them time to develop...

Well if we're purely talking mechanics, what does that prove? The "Intelligence" trait in the Elder Scrolls system relates solely to magical aptitude.