The only real physical difference between men and women is hormones. Everything else is an illusion created by society. Our western society treated them like ornaments in the old days and nowadays they feel such a strong need to prove themselves and be independent, that they've totally forgotten about love.

But seriously, there have been civilizations that have treated women as equals or better. And they've proven to be just as inept and petty as leaders as men have. No better, no worse.

Fun fact: during the crusades, most French and English Lords were off fighting in the Middle East, so the Ladies took over legislation back home. That's why medieval outfits for females all of a sudden become much more creative and revealing. The first thing women do, whenever they gain any bit of status, is start trying to make each other jealous. :rofl:

Sterotypes serve a purpose in games since giving every NPC a distinct background and personality would be an impossible task but its only a tool and a rather crude one at that.

Stereotypes in real life are broad and frequently inaccurate generalisations and I think the same would be true in Tamriel. So people in Tamriel have a stereotype of how they expect Orcs or Nords to behave and treat them accordingly, but although many Orcs or Nords might have some of the characteristics of their stereotype at least in the case of major NPCs you shouldn't be able to assume someone will act in a particular way just because they are an Orc.

I think Orismer, being slightly newer to the party, would be more opportunistic outside their own land. That makes since with their features that they would be clannish and more often brutish, because brutish in the short run can be more profitable. It also makes sense that quite a few would stick to a trade they were good at (smithing) while a few more studied to be a mage or tried their hand at book-keeping. I like the spread. I wish there were more backdrop as to individual stories but it works. I am a bit excited to see how the Orcs will be set up in Skyrim, because of the giant Nord population which may cause some rivalry.
Mercenaries, clannish, 'outsiders', a large part of Imperial efforts, backwater non-Nordic towns. :shrug:



I think you might need to slow down. Those most certainly are not contrary.
If something is lacking in refinement, especially compared to another society, then it is probably considered inferior to the other people culture or land.

I think you need to talk to more Orcs. The orcs in the notes quest fall into the much complained about joke Orc category, about as representative of Orcs as Glarthir is of Bosmer

Lets compare stats
Redguards and Nords Int 30, Imperials Int 40, Bretons Int 50
Orc males Int 30, Orc females Int 40

So on average, taking females into account, Orcs are more intelligent than half the human race, less intelligent than half

Pandering to established fictional stereotypes is boring. Subverting them is cool. Just look at the Dwemer.

The thing I like, the thing I really like about TES Orcs that makes them my favourite PC race, is the oft-mentioned bit in the lore about them joining the Imperial Legion in large numbers. As an avenue to citizenship and status in the Empire it makes perfect sense, and it's a great reversal to see monstrous beings serving as city guardsmen in Gnaar Mok and the like. Another thing sadly missing from Oblivion.

I agree but every individual NPC is never going to be given a personality
Imperial Guard or Bandit are stereotypes too

But... city guards and bandits aren't fictional stereotypes. They're things that have existed in the real world, and still do.

They're still stereotypes
Thats the point, nobody ever fits a stereotype
City Guard 1 reads books on philosophy, City Guard 2 is an avid supporter of the Anvil Dodgers, City Guard 3 etc, but for 99% of concievable encounters with city guards those things aren't important so the game uses the stereotyped city guard

I'm sorry, but 40 intelligence is like - high school diploma.

I never said Imperials were smart, either.

I definitely found Orcish culture in Morrowind interesting - it drew many parallels with feudal Japan and other Asian influences that have since been rerouted into all this moronic Akavir hype. Most of the Orcs encountered in Morrowind were hunters, wanderers, hermits, and the like. They were pretty brutish - with many being armorers or weaponsmiths, but the occasional mage or political figure was seen as well. The problem with Oblivion is that it basically got rid of that first range of Orcs, leaving nothing but the civilized, bland NPCs that felt like recolored Nords.

Most orcs should be stereotypically brutish, uncivilised and dim. They're a largely tribal society, meaning a restricted education, no schooling and widespread illiteracy. They were only recently given citizenship and I do not believe that there has been adequate time to establish themselves in high-standing positions such as merchants and the nobility.

Orcs should be an uneducated race and an easily exploitable source of labour. I would rather them fufill low-paying or physical roles such as guards, servants, thugs or labourers rather than landowners or booksellers. It is not that orcs are inherently unintelligent, but rather that opportunities to learn are not afforded to their race due to the discrimination held against them.

This also means that there will be a large number of orcish bandits, marauders and hostile tribes. It is not because orcs are inherently brutish or thug-like, but because that is the situation that human and elven society has placed them in, and the cultural expectation of them.

However there should still be a minority that transcend these boundaries and become mages, scholars and writers. This must be shown as a difficult task and an accomplishment.

Thousands of years of hatred towards the orcs would not disappear within a couple of decades. Orcs are still a tribal race far removed from imperial civilisation and they should reflect that. They can still have culture and unique values and beliefs. When all races are treated equally, are employed in the same profession and are not subject to the unique roles their race fills, the world becomes duller and more bland.

This is something that I wish oblivion and morrowind had shown. Stereotyping to an extent can add more depth to a race, as long as there are examples that run counter to expectation.

Uh, no idea where you get this distinction. Not even counting in all those marauders, vampires, arena fighters and adventurers, but only the named chars, there are:

Sneaky types ..
* One assassin (in the DB)
* One pirate (on the Serpent's Wake)
* Three rogues
* Three thieves
* One savant
* Two Dark Brotherhood enforcers
... for a total of eleven of them.

"Noble" types ...
* Two semi-independant (Rugdumph and his daughter)
* Two in castle duty (Skingrad and Anvil)
* One priest in Chorrol
... for a total of five.

There are only two mage-type Orcs, a nightblade (Mor gra-Gamorn) and a warlock (Magub gro-Orum).

Aside from that, there are three traders, two owners of a tavern, and nine farmers and the like.

Now, there are the following fighters ...
* Five barbarians
* One crusader
* Seven warriors + one trainer
* Two smiths
* One arena chamption
... for a total of 17 of them.

Now, keep in mind that most of the adventurers, all of the marauders and all of the arena fighters are heavy-armour fighters. So you have not only a good portion of the named (thus, already unusual and atypical) Orcs being your "stereotypical" fighter/armourer type, but also nearly everyone of the unnamed ones.

The difference is, the "Dwarves" weren't so largely portrayed as the Orcs where in past games. I can understand a race that's rarely seen, but the Orcs where widespread savages. That doesn't change in a few years. Especially with mer.

When a race isn't actually in the game, the lore is easier to change. If the Orcs are to become a more civilised society, it should take time. I mean, how long have they been part of the empire? and the only reason they where really allowed to join was for thier help in the Imperial Legion, imo. What I would like to see is a slow increase in the amount of civilised Orcs in the games. There should always be less civilised Orcs than the other races, though. It's a genetic trait of thiers to be aggressive.


What great points. You know, I completely agree with you, and I renounce my opinions. :glare:

Bethesda dosn't play this up enough. The refined orcs should look like kids playing dressup. Hilarious. More upper class orcs like Lord Rungdumph. Rugdumph. whatever. Mauloch's worshipers, on the other hand, should be craven murderers and kidnappers and bootleg bugjuice. Thugs.

From the UESP lore on Orcs

tribal sophisticated barbarian beast peoples =/= widespread savages, that was propoganda.

All things written about orcs before Morrowind was largely anti-orsimer propaganda, making them the equivalent as the lowly gobbo, only bigger.

Let's do something constructive with this thread:

How do we give each race a unique and obvious culture (think the culture of hatred and xenophobia and honor and respect for the Three found among Dunmer in Morrowind) without stereotyping them? Give specific examples where appropriate.

http://www.monkeytruth.net/texts/orccreation.shtml

In Oblivion, it felt like there were no races, just different personalities between some characters. This is what I would not like to see. Even then, it was still pretty bad. I would walk up to daedra cultists and they'd say, "Hey. I heard that the mage's guild banned necromancy."
In TES:V, a stereotype for each race must be established. Those who do not oblige to that stereotype will make more unique characters. The ones who do, will probably seem normal, yet the races will all appear different. Then of course, there should be sub-divisions in races. Ashlanders are superstitious, but they may or may not fit into that race stereotype (racism).

Yes, but that doesn't change in a few years.

QFT

Some of us who love the fantasy aspect of TES, do not love LOTR. So it goes.

The propaganda part, or the sophisticated part?

agreed

If we're talking Orcs, then there's a bit of a problem because Orcs had no real culture until recently. Before, they were broken tribes of raiders that were mostly considered a nuisance. Now, though? Gortwog could wind up as the next emperor for all we know.

He's dead. By the time of the book, he'd be knocking on the Dreamsleeve's door, if not dead from old age already. Orcs only live to around 60; they're a very short lived race.