and remained an uncivilised brute race like LOTR orcs.

seeing orcs in expensive finery, speaking english all around cyrodil feels unnatural.

I want to fight orcs, not sell loot to them.

One question.....why?

TES Orcs are not LOTR Orcs...so why should they be the same? They dont look alike, act alike nor have anything much that relate between them other then the name.

Just because LOTR has orcs, doesnt mean all orcs should be like LOTR orcs.

I hate the whole "this race VS that race" thing LOTR has going on. It's great to have good orcs, and evil elves. The world isn't so simple that all ugly people want to rip your throat out, and all beautiful people would never hurt a fly.

You've never played Morrowind, I see. Most Orcs where barbarian types. Oblivion got nearly every race wrong somehow.

Ah, it were such small-mended citizens like your personalisation which until recent timings prevented us Orsimer from assimilating our rightful position among Tamriel's races! Thankfully, the Empire reconciled our truthful worthiness and didn't listen to such impervious meditations.

Whaaat that would be taking one of my favorites away! :[

I'm not sure what your arguing, that it's not possible to have non warrior orcs? So Oblivion got it wrong because it didn't stereotype them enough?

Imagine the Orcs being the Orismer they are - the corrupted elves - and suddenly it all...feeels...better.

Exactly. Every race should be stereotypical. Orcs should be brutish, Altmer should have a superiority complex, Khajiit should speak broken english, Dunmer should be highly racist, etc. Sure, there could be exceptions, and quite a few exceptions in the homeland, but the majority of a race should be stereotypical. It adds culture, and gives NPC's character, and makes the races more unique.

well said.

Still doesnt change the fact that Id rather them be viscious, menacing, ferocious beasts I could have epic mountaintop battles with rather than talk about mudcrabs with.

Imagine its nighttime.. your out in the wild in the middle of a storm and you get ambushed by a clan of iron-clad orcs with scimitars and spears.. this kind of awesomeness is lost on goblins when I chop them down in a one hit. This was the intended sentiment with my OP.

Im not saying TES should be LOTR extended... but to me it doesnt suit an Orcs attributes to be polite, well mannered book shop owners!

This.

No race "should" anything, the might have a tendency to a specific type, but not every person of that race should be like that.

Oblivion had a majority of orc warriors, but there should be exceptions, or it would break completely with customization freedom, it would make little sense to have the freedom to make an orc mage at all, when they can't and shouldn't be mages.

Every race should have a heritage sure, but to always have dunmer racists, to always have wood elfs be rangers or any other such nonsense would leave the world devoid of creativity.

Then I don't get your critique of Oblivion, in regards to races. Like I said, most Orcs were Warrior types in Oblivion.

I think stretching our perceptions is a good thing in a game. You sound like someone from Skingrad, "He belongs to that orc social club, what a joke." Being able easily to put people/races in a box is limits all concerned. I love it when a TES game asks me really to look at something.

Yeah, well, that's for NPCs. How does it matter at all for the playability of them?!?

I don't neccessarily think they have to be brutish drones. See the Orgum gang in Cheydinhal. I think most/ a lot of them should just be like that - aggressive etc. Could be because of how they were rebuked by everyone not so many years ago

One thing I would like to see is clear social divisions because of race. Orcs could be considered as uncivilised, violent brutes by the human population, and as such feared and avoided, secluded to individual communities within a city where the human inhabitants are afraid to tread. However, when given a chance it should be clear that sometimes this stereotype is an unfair one - the player could go into these communities with an open mind and come across orcs who are in fact civil and kind natured, but remain shunned due to their race. Morrowind had something like this with the anti-beast race attitude of some Dunmer, but in Oblivion all races mingled and lived in perfect harmony with one another. While I don't want to see race A as unquestionably evil and race B as unquestionably good, I'm also not a fan of the melting pot.

What Daydark is saying, I think, is that there can be the stereotypes about the races, but they shouldn't be true 100%. Hircine, if I get what you're saying, you say that there should be stereotypes about the races but they shouldn't always be true. It sounds to me like you guys are saying the same thing, just maybe Hircine, you think the stereotype should be true like 90% or so, and Daydark, you think it should be true like 60% or something like that. Is that what you guys are getting at?

We were saying the same thing, only Hircine believes there isn't enough stereotyping in Oblivion, while I do.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I agree with you.

Hmm...I wonder what Lord Rugdumph would have to say about this.

He would be most displeased.

I second that.

I think he would be most disparted