Organic Spellmaking... : V - Skyrim

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:02 pm

Todd Howard stated that there will be so many spells already in the game, that they don't leave much room for improvement. Since they are taking spellmaking out, obviously they are taking this into consideration. You will have your high damage spells that cost a lot of Magicka, and your baseline spells that can be "spammable" more than likely.
What don't you get?

Cool story bro.

Did you make that up all by yourself?

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:13 pm

I don't know if a system like that would work, and I doubt it will be in Skyrim, but I think it's bloody awesome!

Great idea! I wish spellmaking was like that.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:04 pm

Spellmaking was best in Arena and went downhill from there.
Id really hate it if we ended up with gimmicks and a fable style magic.

Organic spellmaking?
Not needed. just keep it as it was.
No-one ever complained about it untill Todd came with the 'spreadsheety' comment.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:34 pm

Spellmaking was best in Arena and went downhill from there.
Id really hate it if we ended up with gimmicks and a fable style magic.

Organic spellmaking?
Not needed. just keep it as it was.
No-one ever complained about it untill Todd came with the 'spreadsheety' comment.

exactly......exfuzzingactly

and 85 spells over 5 schools is not So many spells that spellmaking can't be in

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:21 pm

Once again, for all the people who don't seem to get it, magic in the TES universe isn't created in the palm of your hand or any of that nonsense - it's called forth with incantations - SPOKEN WORDS. That's why Silence prevents spellcasters from casting spells and that's why spells have to be studied and learned - the proper incantations have to be discovered and/or memorized.

I doubt that's the case. For once you can't hear the chanting during casting, and I don't remember any lore book mentioning incantations either. I don't think you should take Silence literally, it's more like it silences the... "song of magic?"

exactly......exfuzzingactly

and 85 spells over 5 schools is not So many spells that spellmaking can't be in

Well if not about being "spreadsheety", but I was missing the variety of spells. Yes you can argue how you can make infinite amount of spell combinations, but that doesn't change the fact that with all of these spells you just toss balls around that explode and do some effect on the enemy.
Can you make a spell that creates an impassable wall of ice? no. Can you make a spell that showers fire from the sky to random targets? no. Can you make a spell that creates a rune that heals you while you're standing on it? no. Can you create a flamethrower? no.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:24 pm

I doubt that's the case. For once you can't hear the chanting during casting, and I don't remember any lore book mentioning incantations either. I don't think you should take Silence literally, it's more like it silences the... "song of magic?"

Well if not about being "spreadsheety", but I was missing the variety of spells. Yes you can argue how you can make infinite amount of spell combinations, but that doesn't change the fact that with all of these spells you just toss balls around that explode and do some effect on the enemy.
Can you make a spell that creates an impassable wall of ice? no. Can you make a spell that showers fire from the sky to random targets? no. Can you make a spell that creates a rune that heals you while you're standing on it? no. Can you create a flamethrower? no.

Depends on your definition I guess, cause Id say yes to (almost) each your questions.

Impassible wall of ice: ice damage for intensity/ duration + paralyze.
flamethrower: fire damage for intensity/ duration.

Tossing balls around that do effects is exactly what I thought so magical about TES magic.
Because I have such control over exactly what effects and how powerful they are
Finally a game where magic is magical and not completely interchangable with game x, only there they call it psi powers. Or game y, where its mutant power, is what I thought.
Adam and Eve in Bioshock is an excellent example of how I do not want magic to be.
Flashy, gimmicky.

What was excellent about TES magic is that it gave you a tool to affect all of the stats in the game.
An NPC's fight/ flight score. Its disposition, its awareness, all of its attributes and skills. Everything.
That was what made me fall in love with Morrowind. A game where I was in charge, and didnt have to play how some developers imagined I should play.
That is what I hate about Bioware games, that its all just one long narrow path.

I dont give a flying hoop about spells looking like a small ball of light. I always cared about what it actually did.
Sacrificing spell making in favour of 'cool looking' spells sounds like the worst idea since the magnetic iron umbrella to me.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:42 pm

I doubt that's the case. For once you can't hear the chanting during casting, and I don't remember any lore book mentioning incantations either. I don't think you should take Silence literally, it's more like it silences the... "song of magic?"

Well if not about being "spreadsheety", but I was missing the variety of spells. Yes you can argue how you can make infinite amount of spell combinations, but that doesn't change the fact that with all of these spells you just toss balls around that explode and do some effect on the enemy.
Can you make a spell that creates an impassable wall of ice? no. Can you make a spell that showers fire from the sky to random targets? no. Can you make a spell that creates a rune that heals you while you're standing on it? no. Can you create a flamethrower? no.

Bukee, im not saying to hell with flashy and blasty spells for Spell making, im saying flashy and blasty spells are no excuse/reason that I can't make a customized flamethrower spell. there is only so many times some raining from the sky fireballs which not only aren't confirmed, but was with a flick of the wrist placed in Oblivion, AND I was able to customize that spell -in game- mind you, will get tedious and boring.

and I can find indefinently better uses for a trap spell with blinding like that not only alerts me to incoming enemies when im sneaking about to gather loot in a dank dark dungeon but also give me time because they are blind to fly or fight

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:34 am

Magic system in video game that feels like it is magic the most IMO is the system in the game Arx Fatalis. There you 'learn' basic runes and you literally draw rune combinations on screen in order to cast spells.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:59 am

Depends on your definition I guess, cause Id say yes to (almost) each your questions.

Impassible wall of ice: ice damage for intensity/ duration + paralyze.
flamethrower: fire damage for intensity/ duration.

Tossing balls around that do effects is exactly what I thought so magical about TES magic.
Because I have such control over exactly what effects and how powerful they are
Finally a game where magic is magical and not completely interchangable with game x, only there they call it psi powers. Or game y, where its mutant power, is what I thought.
Adam and Eve in Bioshock is an excellent example of how I do not want magic to be.
Flashy, gimmicky.

What was excellent about TES magic is that it gave you a tool to affect all of the stats in the game.
An NPC's fight/ flight score. Its disposition, its awareness, all of its attributes and skills. Everything.
That was what made me fall in love with Morrowind. A game where I was in charge, and didnt have to play how some developers imagined I should play.
That is what I hate about Bioware games, that its all just one long narrow path.

I dont give a flying hoop about spells looking like a small ball of light. I always cared about what it actually did.
Sacrificing spell making in favour of 'cool looking' spells sounds like the worst idea since the magnetic iron umbrella to me.

I am not saying spells should be flashy and less custom...

I am saying that Spellmaking is set to be removed from Skyrim due to certain concerns raised about it... I proposed a way that spellmaking could remain, despite said concerns.

Would you rather there be no Spellmaking, or would you rather it be done organically? It seems to me, to be a very easy question.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:34 pm

Once again, for all the people who don't seem to get it, magic in the TES universe isn't created in the palm of your hand or any of that nonsense - it's called forth with incantations - SPOKEN WORDS. That's why Silence prevents spellcasters from casting spells and that's why spells have to be studied and learned - the proper incantations have to be discovered and/or memorized.

This forum really, REALLY needs fewer posters who don't know how the TES universe works. Go back - play the games (note the plural) - read the lore - understand how things work on Nirn, THEN come back and make suggestions.

Oh and - for the record - Todd's "takes the magic out of magic" swill is just PR fluff. The problem is that they changed the magic system and it will take time and resources to create a spellmaking system that will work with that new magic system and not screw up the game balance, and Beth is trying to weasel out of investing that time and resources. That's it. "takes the magic out" and "spreadsheety" are just empty rhetoric - talking points - excuses.

Yeah that's viable, because normal people have the time to play multiple huge RPG games for the sake of posting on a forum... Anyway, to appease your disgruntlement with the disregard for canonized Elder Scrolls magic use, how about we take the idea listed above, then add in whispers - your character whispers incantations as you make the spell, making it fit with the idea that magic has to be verbalized.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:20 am

Cool story bro.

Did you make that up all by yourself?

Not even making sense at this point but, that's to be expected. :shrug:

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:14 am

I hate scrolls and enchantments. I like using my own magic from within me. I've never used it in the games either. Well, in Daggerfall I did but that was because I was powergaming back then. I think spell making definitely must be in the game. Why should the mages guild be the only ones who can make spells? Their mages aren't any different from an equallyl or greater experienced mage outside the guild.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:35 pm

Bottom line, the OP's idea is really no different from sliders, under the hood. The only difference to the player is that it's way more annoying because you now have to judge the slider positions based on the animation, as opposed to just seeing a number. This introduces frustration, nothing more.

So I say we should have spell making, and have it in the style of MW and OB.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:43 am

Bottom line, the OP's idea is really no different from sliders, under the hood. The only difference to the player is that it's way more annoying because you now have to judge the slider positions based on the animation, as opposed to just seeing a number. This introduces frustration, nothing more.

So I say we should have spell making, and have it in the style of MW and OB.

Not up to you, though. It's up to the devs.

They have different opinions on the subject

Why continue to argue for the old system, when it's clearly marked for death? Better annoying and feasible than revered and not-in-the-game

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:16 am

My impression is it will be exactly how OP described it, at least the essence of deciding amounts and types realtime in an anolog manner rather than previous digital version.

anolog vs. Digital.

If OP is right(I expect/hope so) then spellmaking is in, it just happens on the fly. Isn't calculating the precise amounts/magnitudes of spells always a problem in fantasy literature? And that depleting thing is called stamina not fatigue.

Only combined spells are out. But they are working on it too, to combine two different spells in a meaningful way...

@gpstr,
well, the effect happens in your palm which doesn't contradict the cause. And this is about gameplay which changes from game to game. Talk about missing the point. :rolleyes: BTW, thanks for the info, I didn't know that.

-(I mean I've read it before but it wasn't something I acknowledged fully.)

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:52 am

Not up to you, though. It's up to the devs.

They have different opinions on the subject

Why continue to argue for the old system, when it's clearly marked for death? Better annoying and feasible than revered and not-in-the-game

I've been around long enough to know that devs often have big plans when it comes to revamping old systems, and they often (read: almost always) end up making only minor tweaks when it comes to release. My prediction is that if there is a spellcrafting system, it will be similar to OB. Or no system at all. But certainly not a new system.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:31 pm

We need spell creation, not "on the fly Fable 3 casting". like I said in another thread yesterday, I never heard one person say spell making was too complicated, wasn't magical enough, too many numbers, etc. until Todd said spell making was too 'spreadsheety'. Now everybody jumps on his coattails and agrees. I doubt those people ever even used spell creation to its full extent. they think its just changing the magnitude or intensity of a premade spell.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:11 pm

We need spell creation, not "on the fly Fable 3 casting". like I said in another thread yesterday, I never heard one person say spell making was too complicated, wasn't magical enough, too many numbers, etc. until Todd said spell making was too 'spreadsheety'. Now everybody jumps on his coattails and agrees. I doubt those people ever even used spell creation to its full extent. they think its just changing the magnitude or intensity of a premade spell.

Haha. I never played Fable. I just searched fable+spell and found this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTweR2puS04

Well, why not? It looks flashy there but when systematized in TES style it has potential to be really cool. The area spell effect at 15 sec mark looks like 1:36 effect of Skyrim's gameplay trailer. Now I can understand why they are having hard time figuring combined spells, mimicking them to that exact would be outright copying.

You're right though, I never used spell creating to its full extent, I occasionally cast spells, create fighters mostly(blunt weapons, the only type that works). What else is about it, that I might be missing? How does moving spellmaking to casting moment hurt anything? ~~Can you give me some tips, some examples perhaps?~~ -Wait scratch that, I am using my imagination. (and reading your posts...

Give me some time. Feel free to give some examples though if you still want to.... )

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:11 am

when I see people saying Spell making isnt magic or "its taking the magic out of Magic" or even my favorite, I played as a mage but I didnt use the spell making, I bought all my spells, we don't need spell making and this "system"(which it isnt, its just a bunch of spells) is cooler.

I face palm x5 I mean honestly HOW DO YOU THINK these spells were made? out of the blue? that everyone is going to inherently know the same spells across all of tamriel? and that they were their since the beginning of time? um...no those spells were MADE by MAGES -Spellmaking- they were attuned and designed the way they were and I cannot for the life of me see why people believe having a static array of spells is somehow better and innovative, EVERYTHING about the current system so far that we know is FABLE 3 without the gauntlets period.

How this isn't a removal of options is features is beyond me.

How does moving spellmaking to casting moment hurt anything? ~~Can you give me some tips, some examples perhaps?~~ -Wait scratch that, I am using my imagination. (and reading your posts...

Give me some time. Feel free to give some examples though if you still want to.... )

careful, Xar will blow your mind with just a handful of possible options.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:49 am

Thats really nice described and can perk in enchanting skill tree with requirements of be Journeyman in few spell schools, even if not in game nice to see similar idea in some mod.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:25 pm

when I see people saying Spell making isnt magic or "its taking the magic out of Magic" or even my favorite, I played as a mage but I didnt use the spell making, I bought all my spells, we don't need spell making and this "system"(which it isnt, its just a bunch of spells) is cooler.

I face palm x5 I mean honestly HOW DO YOU THINK these spells were made? out of the blue? that everyone is going to inherently know the same spells across all of tamriel? and that they were their since the beginning of time? um...no those spells were MADE by MAGES -Spellmaking- they were attuned and designed the way they were and I cannot for the life of me see why people believe having a static array of spells is somehow better and innovative, EVERYTHING about the current system so far that we know is FABLE 3 without the gauntlets period.

How this isn't a removal of options is features is beyond me.

I think it is wrongly being called spellmaking, it should be called spell packaging. "Static array of spells" definition fits very well for static array of packed spells in this "spell packaging" system(not a system, just a pack.

). Are all those spells being made of other base element spells(combined spells) or they are all different? I thought they were different. They are being learned rather than "made" as in combining/packaging.

Spellmaking is still there with this new system and it is fully dynamic. It is freestyle which I think sounds good, I plan to use it to its full extend this time.

careful, Xar will blow your mind with just a handful of possible options.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Useful_Spells

Now those are just familiar spells, nothing foreign to me. They can very well be casted back to back. Heart Attack though is somewhat creative but it is still like me cooking some vegetables than calling it Ratatouille. Not all cooked vegetables are Ratatouille, silly.

Still I won't dismiss the fun factor to be able to name spell packages. If we can name our "favorites", does it still count?

PS. Are dragon shouts customizable? I get the impression that we can order word snippets to create special dragon shouts. Most likely I'm wrong and they are all predetermined though.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:17 pm

1 No
2 No. I prefer the system currently in use. I can vocalize, gesture, or enchant objects and equip.
Spells like Paralyze, Silence, and Sound are utilized to interfere with the spell casting of opponents, and are quite useful when used properly.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:44 am

I think it is wrongly being called spellmaking, it should be called spell packaging. "Static array of spells" definition fits very well for static array of packed spells in this "spell packaging" system(not a system, just a pack.

). Are all those spells being made of other base element spells(combined spells) or they are all different? I thought they were different. They are being learned rather than "made" as in combining/packaging.

Well then man just miserable package pile of elements, doesn't anything done from basic elements and tied by elemental chains?
In TES spell making its manipulation of Basic Elements from which created all and tied together by the laws that are called the Earth Bones, thats part of Creation thats left in Nirn when Magnus partially escape creation trap.
And scripting effect expand Creation even more since with scripts we can create new elements or apply them in different way.
So True Spellmaking can be achieved in CS, in CS we actually work with Creation, while in game we just touch it, without spell making we even cant touch them and feel warm of Primordial Forces.

Spellmaking is still there with this new system and it is fully dynamic. It is freestyle which I think sounds good, I plan to use it to its full extend this time.

There is no evidence thats new spell system is dynamic its can be just some hardcoded spells like in Dark Messiah or in Bioshock.

Now those are just familiar spells, nothing foreign to me. They can very well be casted back to back. Heart Attack though is somewhat creative but it is still like me cooking some vegetables than calling it Ratatouille. Not all cooked vegetables are Ratatouille, silly.

Still I won't dismiss the fun factor to be able to name spell packages. If we can name our "favorites", does it still count?

Well not only useful utility spell can be prepared but also roleplaying ones also, with classical magical system enhanced by scripting can be done spell from any other systems.

PS. Are dragon shouts customizable? I get the impression that we can order word snippets to create special dragon shouts. Most likely I'm wrong and they are all predetermined though.

I think they are similar to Ultima Underworld rune system or similar to Arx Fatalis but without ability draw them, instead we will shout them.

Spoiler

-------------------------------------------------------------------|AN   - Negate  |BET  - Small  |CORP  - Death     |DES  - Down    ||EX   - Freedom |FLAM - Flame  |GRAV  - Energy    |HUR  - Wind    ||IN   - Cause   |JUX  - Harm   |KAL   - Summon    |LOR  - Light   ||MANI - Life    |NOX  - Poison |ORT   - Magic     |POR  - Movement||QUAS - Illusion|REL  - Change |SANCT - Protection|TYM  - Time    ||UUS  - Raise   |VAS  - Great  |WIS   - Knowledge |YLEM - Matter  |---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Spells of the 1st Circle       | Spells of the 2nd Circle        ||                                |                                 || IN MANI YLEM   Create Food     | QUAS CORP      Cause Fear       || IN LOR         Light           | QUAS MANI YLEM Dispel Hunger    || ORT JUX        Magic Arrow     | IN BET MANI    Lesser Heal      || BET IN SANCT   Resist Blows    | UUS POR        Jump             || UUS DES POR    Bounce          | REL DES POR    Slow Fall        || WIS JUX        Detect Traps    | ORT WIS JUX    Deadly Seeker    || BET ORT IN     Luck            | IN FLAM JUX    Flame Rune       || BET WIS EX     Locate          | QUAS AN CORP   Valor            ||                                |                                 |--------------------------------------------------------------------| Spells of the 3rd Circle       | Spells of the 4th Circle        ||                                |                                 || AN NOX         Cure Poison     | IN MANI        Heal             || ORT GRAV       Lightning       | IN AN FLAM     Frost            || QUAS LOR       Night Vision    | IN SANCT       Thick Skin       || REL TYM POR    Speed           | NOX JUX YLEM   Poison Weapon    || AN JUX ORT     Dispel Rune     | AN JUX         Remove Trap      || JUX MANI       Bleeding        | SANCT FLAM     Flameproof       || YLEM POR       Water Walk      | GRAV SANCT POR Missile Prot.    || AN KAL CORP    Repel Undead    | WIS MANI       Study Monster    ||                                |                                 |--------------------------------------------------------------------| Spells of the 5th Circle       | Spells of the 6th Circle        ||                                |                                 || REL SANCT YLEM Mending         | VAS IN LOR     Daylight         || POR FLAM       Fireball        | VAS REL POR    Gate Travel      || ORT WIS YLEM   Name Enchantment| VAS IN MANI    Greater Heal     || EX YLEM        Open            | AN EX POR      Paralyze         || AN CORP MANI   Smite Undead    | QUAS REL WIS   Charm            || ORT POR YLEM   Telekenisis     | VAS SANCT LOR  Invisibility     || IN TYM JUX     Time Trap       | VAS ORT GRAV   Sheet Lightning  || UUS HUR POR    Levitate        | WIS EX         Map Area         ||                                |                                 |--------------------------------------------------------------------| Spells of the 7th Circle       | Spells of the 8th Circle        ||                                |                                 || KAL AN MANI    Summon Demon    | FLAM HUR       Flame Wind       || VAS AN WIS     Mass Confusion  | AN TYM         Freeze Time      || ORT AN QUAS    Reveal          | IN VAS SANCT   Iron Flesh       || ORT POR GRAV   Magic Satellite | VAS MANI       Restoration      || VAS EX YLEM    Portal          | ORT POR WIS    Roaming Sight    || JUX HUR        Shockwave       | VAS JUX MANI   Smite Foe        || VAS ORT YLEM   Enchant Item    | VAS HUR POR    Fly              || VAS POR YLEM   Tremor          | VAS KAL CORP   Armageddon       ||                                |                                 |--------------------------------------------------------------------

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:05 am

Now those are just familiar spells, nothing foreign to me. They can very well be casted back to back. Heart Attack though is somewhat creative but it is still like me cooking some vegetables than calling it Ratatouille. Not all cooked vegetables are Ratatouille, silly.

Still I won't dismiss the fun factor to be able to name spell packages. If we can name our "favorites", does it still count?

PS. Are dragon shouts customizable? I get the impression that we can order word snippets to create special dragon shouts. Most likely I'm wrong and they are all predetermined though.

Not really, but those are just the tip of the iceburg and rather simple ones on that list. Take the aquatic Equestrian spell for example. Add in chameleon, fortify magicka and weaknesses to shock. Now cast that on your horse and you've got some Maomer serpent magic, which is lore friendly of course. Plus its not about what the actual effects your using are, just what they represent in your roleplay.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:18 am

Spellmaking is still there with this new system and it is fully dynamic. It is freestyle which I think sounds good, I plan to use it to its full extend this time.

No, it's not. Every time this topic comes up in a thread, there are posts that say it's just the same, but it's not. It's not even close.

Off the top of my head custom spells (just to give an idea):
Stumble: Burden 300pts for 2 secs on target
Trip: Absorb Fatigue 200pts for 1 sec on target
Blinding Blast: Fire Damage 30pts for 10' on target, Chameleon 50% for 5s on self

There are several issues, that people don't seem to understand.
- Every TES game BGS makes has a large number of utterly useless spells. Assuming that this will change for the first time in their history is naive (possible, but naive).
- The only way to make broken spell effects useful is to customize them through mods, custom spells, or both.
- Pre-packaged spells, when they've gotten the testing and balancing they need, might work fine for what BGS was thinking, but does NOT allow for players to customize spells to fit the strategy and role-play for their specific character.

Maybe I have a conjurer who can't fight well at close range. Custom spell-making, *real* custom spell-making, if well implemented, provides the ability to use spell effects suited to a play-style for that character. This is not about cheats or min-maxing, it's about allowing ME to choose the trade-offs to fit a particular type of play and to develop my own tactics to fit each character. BGS always does sloppy balancing based on a kind of 90%-fighter 10%-spellcaster type of character. Pre-packaging will force even more restrictions on anyone who doesn't conform to BGS expectations. That's very, very bad.

One other thing: as has been pointed out, roleplaying a pure mage should be all about spellmaking--much more so than enchanting. Enchanting, like Alchemy, benefits all character types, and is optional for many varieties of pure mage types. Spellmaking is much more integral, and it's too bad BGS doesn't get that. They're cutting out depth for candy, and that's a bad design decision for mages. It doesn't make much difference for the majority who are mostly fighters, which is who they're catering to.

For those who keep bringing up spray, AoE, etc. Yes, those are good to have. Both Morrowind and Oblivion have mods that already do that without breaking custom spellmaking. For BGS to implement a handicapped version of what has been implemented multiple times by modders who had to work with engines that weren't meant to support those features is just disappointing.