He did, however, invent morphing into beasts.

No he didn't. He's a daedra. He didn't participate in Nirn. Bosmer are part of Nirn.

The Wild Hunt is a little bit of leftover Dawn Era, when all life took myriad forms at once because the world was a cascade of conflicting ideas unregulated by linear time. Look in the sky, it's a birdrhinowhirpoolporpoispurplemountainsmajestyauroraborealis.

Seeing Hircine in this is like saying Mehrunes Dagon and Boethia instigated the Alessian revolution because of their spheres of rebellion and violent overthrow of authority. There is no evidence.

Like it or not, Daedra are responsible for a lot of the things on Nirn. Like vampirism and lycanthropy or madness. Their transformations into beasts for a hunt sounds like lycanthropy, which Hircine did create. Either way, it sounds too familiar to be pure coincidence.

As for Mehrunes Dagon, it was said that he did walk Tamriel during the Mythic Era.

But we already know what the Wild Hunt is. Are you suggesting that Hircine is related to Y'ffre and the primal forces of the Dawn Era?

Does "too similar to be coincidence" mean anything besides "I say so"?

Edit: But I can never tell if you're trying to make a case for something or are just throwing out a stream of semi-relevant tidbits to champion the possibility that it may be true,

But the Wild Hunt sounds very Hircine-like, as are the terms used by the daedric hunters. Just because he's not directly involved doesn't mean that he isn't connected. And being sporting is not Mehrunes Dagon's forte. But I'm just trying to point out the possibility of connection. Don't try that "it's impossible for him to be connected" garbage, because it isn't. I'm not saying it's for sure, but it seems far from impossible.

Funny you should defend coincidences, given how many times you put so much effort into disproving me on this forum.

Many things are possible- almost anything. But do you believe that it is actually so? If you don't, what is the point? What does the remote possibility (I say remote because there is no evidence) tell us about the Bosmer, about Hircine, about anything? It's entirely possible that Pelinal is left-handed. Who cares? There's a difference between tossing ideas around and dragging them around on a leash.

Curiously, when Haskill was asked about the Seducers serving Mehrunes Dagon, he mentioned that Mehrunes Dagon was a puppet of other princes. I'm not saying it has to be true, but given the undertones of the Wild Hunt, I wouldn't be surprised if Hircine was somehow behind it. Then again, Haskill also said that mortals jump to conclusions, but I'm just trying to throw the possibility out there. We know very little, all things considered.

Occasionally we know too little to there be any value in the discussion, or at least 99% of it. Adventurous Putty drew connections between two areas we are clueless about, Tcaseci and Hist, but he did the work and made a study of it, it was good. Tarvok Spellbinder made the first ever good post about Pale Pass but sadly failed to shut everyone up, it was good. By throwing out possibilities, what is your aim, exactly? People will listen if you say something new and write it yourself.

In conclusion, it is highly probably that Hjalti Early-Beard had a raging homosixual crush on Zurin Arctus and craved his sweet mancandy because the battlemage played the role of Female Principle in the Enantiomorph. That last sentence does not make me the crusader for the open mind or the dedicated champion of teaching the controversy. At all.

That's what I've been doing all along. There's a difference between writing something previously unheard of and writing what everybody wants to hear. It's not like the ideas of Copernicus and Galileo were well-received when they were first introduced.


That's because it makes too many assumptions. Unlike the affairs of the Mundus, the affairs of Oblivion are unheard of to mortals. And then there's the whole dispute of whether the Arcturian Heresy is true, given that it contradicts multiple other sources, but that's another arguement. And then there's the fact that just because there's a male and female aspect of something, that they have to be connected sixually. Look at the Anticipations, they're usually considered the opposite gender of their Tribunal counterpart.

He doesn't. People were doing that and more before things were stabilized by Y'ffre. It's his knowledge that allows the Bosmer to circumvent it during a wild hunt. This knowledge however isn't limited to Y'ffre, aside from the Werewolves, Nocturnals Vampires can also do it.

In other words, transformations are the normal modus of existence in the Aurbis. In Mundus however these are prevented by Y'ffre.



The Wild Hunt of the Bosmer doesn't resemble the Wild hunt of Mehrunes at all. Wild Stampde would be a more accurate description because that's exactly what it is. The Hunt of Mehrunes Dagon however resembles Hircines hunt more because there are the Hounds and the Hunter and a Quarry.

The only similarity, the changing in to beats is something that we don't need any Daedra for.

I would say "I hate to break it to you," but that's what people have been doing for several months now.


Assumptions are the core of this sort of statement. Evidence doesn't matter, because all you need is a lack of disproving evidence. The logic can be skewed and tortured and the arguments utterly insensible, but it is "possible" as long as it cannot be disproved by any line of reasoning less mathematical than 2+2=4

And even then, you can claim that sources lie, that it might get retconned, and that "we can't really be sure" and we "don't really know," creating an artificial atmosphere where no one knows anything about lore or any anologous subject at all, and it is never necessary to concede a single point. Nothing like claiming complete subjectivity for getting your pretentiousness on, is there?

Let's just ignore paw-print's wind up, eh? It has very little content



That sounds like a powerful purpose to underwrite the concept of a need for the Earthbones - be interested to see where that comes from.


Crimson Paladin, you are quite correct. A number of the people who spend so much time contradicting what you say and who treat you with a contempt that is undeserved have got together on their website to plan attacks on things that you have posted.

A lot of what they say about the Lore is correct (unfortunately as that is their justification for the way they behave.) Really they ought to be ashamed of themselves but they are too immature and inexperienced to be able to properly understand the harm they do. And also they are hypocrits as they never had to put up with the kind of nonsense they dish out when they were learning stuff.

Too, a lot of the **** they throw around is because they are not as clever as they pretend so they are covering up for those bits they cannot remember. We can see clearly that their own overblown egos would not permit them to fail to state clearly and precisely where they get their info from - if only they could actually remember

The info about Dagon comes in part from Daggerfall and Battlespire - where the matter of how Daedra view mortals and hunts comes up - I think there might have been mention in Morrowind too. (now if only I could remember the exact books :rolleyes: )

Proweler's post sums it up quite well and when I first came upon the Hircine Quests in Solstheim I was a bit disappointed because the original Dagon-material felt more interesting, left hanging as it was. and there was another wonderful piece about a Green Glass church or village that was transported to Oblivion by an angry Daedra that fitted so well with that attitude. (there may be a book on that in Tel Fyr if you want to go book hunting)

You are correct that Hircine is a candidate for this (that crossed my mind more than once and I tried the notion here and in other Forums to see what people thought and to see if anyone could come up with a new slant on it) - but sadly I believe the Lormpyres are correct once again and that there is another aspect to it entirely.

Anything remaining - other possibilities would be purely specualative - if for example there were an agreement between Yffre/Jephre and a Daedra Prince ... and that unfortunately does not feel right.

The most amusing aspect of this is that the Lormpyres hate the Jephre thing (simply because of the name) and yet are happy to have a Yffre (same name older spelling/form presumably as an Aedra). Myself I prefer the Jephre and Yffre are separate entities route as (especially Jazz) Music, numbers and Chaos Theory fit together so interestingly - and Forest Rhythms themselves are too slow ... it's the perception and experience that 'quickened' beings have of Forests that makes Music about Forests fascinating.

Really I don't like the idea of a musician rooting himself in the earth - that does not add up.

Comes from Words of the Clan Mothers to her Favored Daughter.

There are more things that transform than were-creatures and vampires. Seducers change forms in Mundus. Cyrus was turned into a bird whenever he wanted with a shrine and bird feathers. The archmage Jaganvir turned Cyrus into a gremlin as an average fun spell, and Joto knew enough about transformation spells to undo the archmage's work. The tales of Kieran are presented as a "you decide" fiction and they write the story around a transformation. Not the best evidence there at the end, but Redguard certainly has two very strong points about transformation.

At a guess - seducers are Daedra and might not be totally controlled by Aedra / gods. Not sure about Cyrus, but transformation spells might be very different from innate 'self' transformation?

On balance I suggest that the exceptions prove the 'rule' - that things have changed drastically