Haha! That's totally awesome.

Where is that quoted from? Probably your creation myth.... I need to get around to reading it, but I'm swamped right now learning about Rourken Dwemeri Clan and 'Dwarves of Kragen' (from Arena/Fang Lair).


~TK.R

The first page of this topic. It might have been overlooked because it was buried in a heap of arguments about the proper approach to orcs.

I see. I did read that post, but apparently missed the 'lizardman' part.

~TK.R

I know, which is why I did not insist that they were called Betmer in Daggerfall. It is quite odd that Morrowind both retconned the Orcs as Elves yet at the same time introduced the whole "aboriginal beast races" thing into the lore. They're both from Morrowind, but I'm sure you know which one I agree with more. I'm not saying Morrowind was totally offbase, its just that all the stuff you people seem to quote from it is. Why arn't you so keen on the aborginal beast race thing? It too is from your beloved Morrowind.

And you are wrong about the Goblin thing. Orcs have been associated with Goblins since arena:



and re-enforced in the pge:



The president existed, Morrowind decided to just throw it out the window if favor of a Tolkien rip-off. Nice job being "original" Kirkbride.

Why? I've already explained why I find the Aboriginal Beastfolk thing boring. Because it has no mystery. Because by tying orcs to a mythical event that is strange and only partially understood, it gives us, the lore scholars, the opportunity to discuss what happened, why it happened and what does it mean. You know, the opportunity for further discovery. Why did Trinimac change? What are "the forbidden teachings of Trinimac"? Why did the orcs change with him? How does this affect their metaphysical outlook? What does the story tell us about the orcs, their character, nature and goals? Does the plight of the orcs have a wider subtext that relates to the real world? The myth erects a springboard for greater discovery.

Which is why I felt compelled to write that Orsimer Creation myth. Because it held opportunity for something new to build on the old.


Arena isn't lore. It's proto-lore from when the game was still a D&D campaign. If I remember correctly, it even had a spider god. Nor is the actual information, with its the rather tenuous "scholars have speculated" an outright admission. The Daggerfall text doesn't even mention goblins, conspicuously enough, even though the orcs being such a big part of the plot it would have been appropriate to explore it.


What, the PGE we hold up as a consistently biased source? Calling them goblin-ken along with "http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/wildregions.shtml)? Wow, that extremely general and vague label that lumps an assortment of creatures together must be right!


I thought I already explained why it isn't a Tolkien ripoff. And considering the way it shutup everyone up about Tolkien ripoffs, I thought it did its job.

Okay, I'll give you the option to get out without having too much egg on your face. Do I really need to go into detail as to why comparing elves that have been turned into "cruel and savage oppressors, fit for war and war alone" (my words) and whose goal is to fight for their evil lord, as opposed to a "dispossessed and oppressed peoples, whose fortunes were tied to the impugned honour of their hero" is really just a fallacy? How is saying their a ripoff of Tolkien because they were both originally elves any different from saying wood elves are a ripoff because they live in a forest and are good with a bow? Do you enjoy being wilfully ignorant about the differences even if it makes you look absurd? Do you know the definition of superficial, which is exactly what this comparison is? Are you aware invoking presidents has no influence on a citizen of a country where a prime minister wields executive power?

And other hilarious things...

I consider many elements of Arena semi-lore. If you look at my sig, I'm trying to design a TC and I've been fishing for information and lore surrounding cities, events, people, and creatures of Arena.

The two points you mention of Arena lore, I believe still fall in with the rest of TES lore.
The previous quote still holds true, because it is pre-Daggerfall, hence Orcs still not being recognized as sentients.

As for the Spider God, yes there was one named Shagrath. You had to retrieve the lifesource/power of his High Priestess Selene to get the location of Elden Grove. This may not be a god on the scale of the Aedra or Daedra, but each culture (or even small cults) will worship their own deities as they please. Tribunal worship is non-existent outside of Morrowind, because they are not the Gods of any other culture or people


I have no intention if fighting or invalidating your points. I merely wish to state my opinion of Arena lore. (Yet I also agree with it being a electronic D&D campaign)

~TK.R

Er, I'm not sure what this means, since the question was whether orcs are related to goblins in any meaningful way. A text that includes the words "some scholars speculate" hidden in an Arena bestiary is scraping the bottom, but still par for the course as far as Mort is concerned, I suppose.


Shargrath became combined with Tedders's name to become Sheogorath, IIRC. My point was that it doesn't resemble the TES world we know. Like I said, it's proto-lore. The only things I'd still consider applicable would be those things confirmed by later sources. The main plot, for example. But even that was retconned to make Jagar Tharn a servant of Dagon.


Well, yeah. It is. It was created from a campaign run by the original devs. It still had the incomprehensible THAC0 thing, I think.

Ahhh...the stupid system where a 0 is a better AC than 10.

And I thought Mortazo liked the whole Orcs are from Draenor theory?

So THAT'S what they call the inside of a daedra's sphincter these days.....

Sure, but that was from Daggerfall and therefore good instead of Morrowind and therefore bad.

Re-read that part, Alb.

I am pretty sure he meant "Precedent" and NOT "President" I blame spellchecker.

Yup, makes for a couple funny statements though. I was almost expecting a speech involving "Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you."

"And other hilarious things... "

Would it have made it easier if I had included a smiley?

EDIT: um, thats from the official website, in the races section.
Did they not used to be hunted as beasts of sport? And then they were accepted as people.

The official website is not worth much in comparison to official game content.

You mean, like Mephala? ^_^

Evil Lord? Do you mean Malacath or Morgoth? Their names are ever so similar. Both were once angelic servants to their respective supreme deity (Akatosh and Eru) and fell.

"cruel and savage oppressors, fit for war and war alone" sounds like the horrible creatures that fought in the Battle of Red mountain doesn't it? The Orcs were very much portrayed in the light in Morrowind? Does that remind you of any Middle-Earth battles? I hope I don't have to review the entire plot of Lord of the Rings for you, but the heart and the one ring bear striking similarity.

Arena may have ripped of D&D, but at least they didn't kid themselves into plagiarizing Tolkein like MK. You are such a blind sheep. You're so full of yourself you don't even realize that Morrowind is just a rip-off of every other fantasy setting ever created with some Hindu overtones thrown in.



I believe that's you. I'm done with your close-minded elitism in this topic. I won't be responding anymore.




Okay, I will give you that. Perhaps the old theory bore some similarities to WarCraft. Still, there were a good amount of differences and the Orcs were still able to be portrayed as "dispossessed and oppressed peoples" in Daggerfall (which they were). Morrowind turned them from the outsiders they were in Daggerfall to just another every-day well-excepted race in the empire. The mystique was destroyed by Morrowind. As soon as I saw Orcs living in towns, trading and generally fitting in with the other races, the entire Orcish subplot in Daggerfall seemed a waste of time and good creativity.

My god... you've finally gone of your very own maniacal deep end.

You have difficulty distinguishing between names starting and ending with the same letter? Well, I can't say I'm really surprised at this point. But Trinimac, an angelic being? What's angelic about him? What, because he's an Aedra? Well, no, if you follow the lore, both in Morrowind and even in Oblivion with Mankar's rant, the ethical character of the \Aedra is something repeatedly called into question ("liars", "biters"). Hell, even in the myths, the ethical character of the Aedra is a question seemingly avoided. Was Trinimac still angelic when he tore the heart out of one of the chief gods of the Nordic pantheon?

Trinimac didn't fall. He was pushed out of Boethiah's bowel after being used as proof of the greater power of the Daedra. I might be crazy, but the character, motivations and actions of the actors involved appear to be completely different, and any similarities completely superficial.



Prevaricator, debate thyself. You've already given an example of a difference between the Tolkien orcs and TES orcs.

At Red Mountain the orcs fought on the side of the orcs and were barely mentioned in the texts, but it's implied they were mercenaries, and I didn't see much evidence of cruelty, savagery and blind belligerence. Why are these labels ("horrible creatures") more applicable to orcs than it is to the Dwemer, Dunmer or Nords who also fought in the battle?


HAHA.


There are no, or very few, Hindu overtones. Thelema? Gnosticism? Postmodernism? Much more apparent but probably not as familiar. But then, Morrowind isn't familiar.



Considering this is what Gortwog wanted, and the orcs in Morrowind weren't all exactly civilised (a large group lived in a squalid shambles; Ghorak Manor, while most of the rest seemed to occupy purposeful jobs because of their abilties, like blacksmiths and warriors), that's an odd position to take. It was also too bad you had to slaughter your way through an army of them in Daggerfall just to speak to the only one who could form words and give you the persecution story.


Happened a long time ago. He has http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=738606&view=findpost&p=10673898 issues http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=764193&view=findpost&p=11106988 to http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=738606&view=findpost&p=10679497 in order to become a http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showuser=296123

Edited for crippling, meaning-changing error.

Eh, flaming MK is one thing, but when your view of lore becomes nothing but bile, there is a certain element that you have abandoned...

It's the sort of thing that makes me wonder what one is doing in this forum in the first place.

Humble apologies for my sudden intrusion here, but I found this topic so intriguing that I just had to become involved.

I wouldn't say that any fantasy universe plagiarises Tolkien really. (Unless you're talking about the wondrous tales of Eragon.) Tolkien's works were just so epic and dominant that you can't even touch the fantasy genre without even unwittingly paying tribute to him. But even he had his influences; several of the Medieval epics (Beowulf specifically), the works of George MacDonald, and the Bible. (I apologise if the mention of the latter work violates the terms and conditions, but I assure you that in this instance I refer to it purely as a work of literature.)

The point is that even though the term 'Orc' itself was defined as we know it today by Tolkien, it wasn't even his word to begin with. It is derived from the Latin - 'orcus' - which literally refers to 'the Underworld.' The word orc can be found throughout Medieval literature, 'Paradise Lost' being the most relevant to this case, and is essentially another word for a Demon or Evil Spirit. A fallen Angel even.

So is Tolkien the plagiarist? The idea of a graceful being reduced to something ugly certainly wasn't his originally.

I find every discussion about "plagiarism" to be absolute bunk. People often think themselves very smart for being able to point out similarities between different works. This is not plagiarism. Plagiarism is when I go



Anyone who has some experience in literary scholarship knows that a significant part of all scholarly articles on world literature have "A and B" in the title, where A and B are to replaced by the names of two texts, or two authors. Literary scholars love nothing more than pointing out similarities and inspiration sources.


However, discussions like these in the style of "ES copied this" or "Tolkien copied that" are silly and endless. If the inability to point out any resemblances to other texts was a criterion for judging works, I'd have to write a story about a 2D projection of a cube who marries a vase of dandelions. In Swahili.

***
And I am sorry to say this, Mortazo, but your criticism is so far-fetched as to wander into the category that I label "bonkers".



EDIT: On second thought, someone would probably still reproach me for using the "unlikely marriage" trope.

Aren't nearly all fantasy worlds, etc drawn from real world sources, our myths and legends. So it is inherently likely that the will be similarities.



Having said that, it is difficult to prove that its not plagiarism. I for one do not believe its plagiarism, given how fanatical whoever controls the Tolkien stuff is about their intellectual property. Plus, there would have been umpteen million court case (alright, I exaggerate) by now.

And this topic is sooooooooooo derailed...