Ok, I hear Orcs are really called Orismer, yes? I can't remember which book, but I remember reading they are corrupted mer or something along those lines; why is that?

From "The True Nature of Orcs" :



And some reading material:

http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/true_nature_orcs.shtml
http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/briansarticle01.shtml

No more corrupted than the Dunmer.

(More nastily changed, perhaps, but its not like we're talking Tolkein here: if anything the Dunmer's change was more of a 'corruption', as it was a malicious punishment, rather than a side-effect)

Also, while it's not officially official, http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=610840&hl= is worth a look if you want to know how the Orcs came to be (or at least how some Orcs believe they came to be).

That's the million dollar question. Apperently it was "too Tolkien" for them not to be, even though in reality making Orcs elves is a direct rip-off of Tolkien.

I like to say they aren't, and enough in-game books (not to mention an entire game) confirm that they aren't.

Uh... One book confirms it. In Oblivion, which is, of all TES games, one of the most 'I want to go back to the clich?s'.

Arena? Yes, Arena had Orcs as creatures.

Daggerfall had them too. In Daggerfall, they are as much creatures in our point of view as the Germanic tribes in the point of view of the Romans. The description of the creatures and one of the game's endings confirm it.

Daggerfall had humans as creatures! This must mean humans are horribly corrupted and vile! /sarcasm

This has nothing to do with whether orcs are elves or not. The argument is pure strawman, nothing says that Orcs have to be "horribly corrupted and vile" just because they are goblin-ken.

Though I do not myself support the idea of them being such. I must admit, however, that the Trinimac-being-eaten-and-[censored]-out-myth is very, very uninspiring.

edit: And "the Pig Children" is a Daggerfall "book" (a pamphlete, says the TIL description).

The word 'mer' does not denote Elf. The connotation is Elf, due to" High Elf/Altmer, Dark Elf/Dunmer, craftsmer, etc

But the translation of 'mer' is literally Folk or Ones. Orsimer is Pariah Folk, Dwemer is Deep Ones, Chimer is Changed Ones, etc.

I think that the connotation has come about because of of the PGE1, which everyone knows is full of Imperial Propaganda.


~TK.R

Mmm, no. Mer means "elf."

Betmer.

Maybe so. But in that case "One" has come to designate a race or origin just as 'man' 'woman' and 'person' suggest humans in our world.

But Khajiit really are "beast elves." or Betmer.

I think that it has come to mean elf, I don't believe that it was originally meant to be the literal word of 'elf'. Like I stated before, I believe in comes from the PGE1 (read the note at the bottom of the http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/) as well as generally slang usage.


~TK.R

[edit]: And I don't believe Betmer would mean beast elves. The beast folk are generally thought of as lesser (including Orcs, until the Warp) than men and mer, and so I doubt that elves would want the Khajiit would want them to be considered among them.

May be true, but there is no evidence to support this. From all the evidence I have seen, mer means elf, and man means, well... man.

You are correct, but regardless your orginal ssumption is still wrong.

The Orcs were never said to be "mer" but a "throng of Aldmer". So the book actually specifically calls themselves. I believe the book is wrong though.

Muah. I blush.


Uninspiring or uninspired? If uninspiring, then yes, sure, I don't think being [censored] out is a particularly glorious note in their history. If uninspired, I'd have to disagree. Comparing it to Tolkien's corrupted elves is disingenuous at best, because in one the nature of the orcs is of cruel and savage oppressors, fit for war and war alone, while in the other it's of a dispossessed and oppressed peoples, whose fortunes were tied to the impugned honour of their hero. When I wrote that story above I had to think about what would make orcs tick. I found the answer wasn't in tribal savagery, but in Albert Camus's absurdism, Sisyphus pushing up a giant ball of [censored] every day, swearing under his breath in the sweat of his brow only to have it roll over him again. Then, for good measure, I included some scatalogical humour from Gargantua and Pantagruel, since their entire outlook was formed at that moment their hero turned into a digested hero, and it would have been remiss not to acknowledge that.

The other option was to go the aboriginal beastfolk route, which holds no mystery or questions. In the Boethiah-Trinimac incident, we at least have questions to be asked, like "how did this happen? why did this happen? If myths are a portrait of a cultural outlook, what does this particular myth say about this people? How has it shaped their perceptions? How does it fit into other metaphysical schemes?"

The comparison with Tolkien is about as accurate as saying that since wood elves live in a forest, they're a boring ripoff. They are; if you don't acknowledge everything else written about them.


And Argonians? They're also betmer.

Mer, like any other word, has its nuances. It means folk, in the sense of "us" but when combined with another word, can mean something "like us". The best comparison is the word "lizardman", which doesn't implicitly mean the creature in question is a man or even holds kinship with man.

Well, I wasn't really referring to your story (which by the way is very good reading), but merely to the "eaten-and-[censored]" concept. It seems such an.. immature anology, if that's the word.
However, after reading your creation myth, and considering what you said (the what does the myth say about the people and culture-stuff) above, I do like it better. I hadn't really thought in those lines before.

First off, I have yet to read Albides' Orc Creation myth. But when it comes to the 'eaten-and-[censored]' story, I agree that it doesn't sound to great (at least to other races, maybe the Orcs don't feel that way as much).

In the PGE3 entry on http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/orsinium.shtml, the Orcs of Orsinium (or at least the shaman priests of Orsinium) worship Trinimac instead of Malacath/Mauloch. Gortworg gro-Nagorm wishes to cease the worship of Malacath in order to gain acceptance and providency by the Empire and other races. However, ending such worship may prokove unwanted feelings from a Daedric Prince.

~TK.R

The interresting thing is that this might mean the end of Malacath.. in a sense. "Outcast" will always remain a Daedric Prince, because his Sphere cannot be removed or destroyed (without destroying creation), but Trinimac may come back and Orsimer may no longer be the pariah folk.

This would mean that Malacath would lose both Orcs as followers (and not only in the "praying to you" sense) AND a part of himself (the Trinimac part) too.

So yes he might get quite angry, but I think that'd only help Gortworg in the end because it would mean they are onto something.

Oh, that's all right then. That's another key difference between TES and Tolkien. It isn't committed to a polite, middle-class view of things. It can joke about itself and deal with [censored] without looking po-faced. An even better example is the Aldudaggas, which is filled with jokes, off-colour humour and swearing, as is entirely appropriate for rambunctious Nords, but still deals with important theological concepts.

While you are right about the "mer" in "betmer" not referring to kinship with elves, but rather similarity to them, it should be noted that, while the high elves certainly desire no perception of kinship between them and either khajit or argonian, the khajit, in their own stories, claim kinship to the wood elves. (And I have often wondered if "bosmer" or "tree sap people" indicates any similarity to the argonians, who are known to have something to do with the sap of the hist, the sentient trees of Black Marsh.)

Meh, I believe that Argonians are a strain of their own, owing no heritage with elves, men, nor anything spawning from Akivar. They may have been created by the Hist, by having lizards lick the Hist, or are a strain of Hist.

I view the term Betmer as more of a generalizing beast races in general, most likely due to everyone practically looking down upon them. The "mer" part may be the translation of "one", so the name could just mean "beast ones." Again, the word "mer" is used in a way that is kinda funky, or it just stuck with them and people don't really care to really change it.

I always thought that Betmer started as a term for Khajiit, who are actually elves. And then rascism and generalisation catogorized Argonians as the same as Khajiit, the same ways rascism made people associate Orsimer and goblins as the same race.

Naw.

"Mer" is just the elves' word for people.

The word "Inuit" is simply Inuit for "people", and thus that is why they (fittingly) are called Inuit. Eskimo coincidently means foreigner , which is why I recently stopped called them Eskimos. But that's neither here nor there.

Mer is just their word for people. Now, Mer don't consider men or beast-men people, but the Brento-nordic natives of Cyordill decided to sound sophisticated and use th elven word for people instead of just the word "man".

Also, Orcs sued to be really advanced and cultured Goblins. Then it was retconned so that they were elves. That is why they were called Betmer.

And btw, Khajiit are not elves. They share a common linage with the Bosmer, but are still not elves. Never were.

The use of the word Betmeri to apply to orcs is contemporaneous with the "retcon", both being introduced by Morrowind. (We've pointed out several times there was no such retcon, because no origin story was ever written for orcs in Daggerfall, and nothing ever connecting them with goblins).

The PGE 1st Ed does say mer means folk, so yes, that's right. But I've pointed out that Betmer makes sense without creating false etymologies about Cyrodiils putting on airs or being ignorant.

To quote myself: Mer, like any other word, has its nuances. It means folk, in the sense of "us" but when combined with another word, can mean something "like us". The best comparison is the word "lizardman", which doesn't implicitly mean the creature in question is a man or even holds kinship with man.

"Lizardmen:" is only an example, but it is used once in the lore. By Alessia Ottus, of all people. "Buh..that means she's claiming kinship with them...". Obviously not..