@ Villfarelse: I think we have pretty much the same idea on this whole thing, of which I'm glad. Love it when I see some level headed folks here




:clap:

I've forgotten who said it, but the Ordinators were Almalexia's; and among their duties in Vivec City was keeping tabs on Vivec for her. Vivec's counterparts to the Ordinators were the Buoyant Armigers.

That's why I said Oblivion's Blades. I think they're the ceremonial public face of the organization.

"The Blades? What do you mean spies? They're just those Nibenean kids with Akaviri blood who guard the Emperor."

I still disagree with you. There's nothing ceremonial nor public about Oblivion's version of the Blades. I don't know where you get that from. In Oblivion the Blades are at war, nothing less. They do what they have to do. It doesn't make them any less than their Morrowind, Arena etc counterparts.

The Telvanni and Redoran grand councilors specifically come to mind.

Oblivion [censored] (some of) TES and made every guild and organization look like gibbering idiots just to pawn novelty technology such as Radiant AI and bloom lighting instead of focusing on atmosphere and content like Morrowind did.

The Thieves Guild felt more developed in Vvardenfell than in Cyrodiil.

The Mages Guild felt more competent in Vvardenfell than in Cyrodiil.

The Dark Brotherhood was presented better in Tribunal than in Oblivion.

Edit: Or maybe that was just me.

They are all humans wearing armor that is aesthetically pleasing, and spend most of their time playing with pretty swords in a remote fortress that is also suspiciously stylish. If they were supposed to be the best , last line of defense for the ruler of Tamriel, wouldn't they be drawn from the best of all the Empire, using the best tactics and equipment of all the Empire? That's how the Legions do it, more often than not. Instead they are all Imperials and few Redguards, part of a military order with some vague focus on Akatosh.

Does Cloud Ruler Temple look secret to you? It is a replica. It's like housing Buckingham Palace guards in HMS Victory.

These aren't the same Blades that tracked down Numidium, and I very much doubt that Caius Cosades answers to Jauffre.

I point out that Oblivion did that sort of thing to all the guilds and organizations, as I posted before.

Fixed.

Cloud Ruler Temple is "stronghold" of the blades, but it's in the mountains, so isn't really convienient for a spy agency, or a military agency for that matter.

Actually, a fortress on a hill is the best kind for taking on enemy infantry forces.

Yes I know. But I doubt the Blades like being hemmed into anywhere for long periods of time.

For all you know, they could be the best of the best. And I find it ironic that you appeal to how iconic the Legion supposedly does it, when the image of the Legion in Oblivion is hardly what you describe. This is the treatment the Blades has gotten as well, you need to see past the blunt vision here.

And I'm not even going to dignify that "playing with pretty swords" comment.

Jauffre even states that Cloud Ruler Temple is the "secret fortress of the Blades since...", as far as I know, only the Countess of Bruma is fully aware of it's existence and purpose. Tar-Meena at the AU implies that the Blades use several cloak and dagger methods, and Baurus explains many methods of how the Blades avoid public attention during conversation.

I think you are way too hung up on the public face the Blades has, like Jaffre says, only a select few has the honor to serve publicly as the emperors personal guard. And those are the only Blades that are seen by the inhabitants of Cyrodiil, which is what gives rise to the quotes like the one you posted in your first post.

They are the same Blades, just in two different situations, dealing with them in different ways. You're the classic example of what I mentioned earlier.

Weren't the Legions invisible in Oblivion? Y'know, so the Daedra couldn't find them? Becuase I didn't see any.

The bigger part of the Imperial Legion would naturally be off in other provinces, keeping the peace and putting out unrest there. The Cyrodiil cities have their own guard, and it's not like they expected a full blown Daedric invasion.

Did you even play Oblivion!?



I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny or not. So I'm going to give you a serious answer, in case you are actually wondering. The Legion are everywhere in Oblivion, they're all the guards, the forresters, the patrols, they're in several inns etc. You can recognize them by their gray plate armor and signet helmets.

Oblivion's Legions are obviously not the same sort of soldiers as the garrisons of Vvardenfell.


No seriously, they are pretty and shiny and standardized. Intelligence agents don't don armor and suddenly become bodyguards. That would just be stupid.


But see, we already know that Jauffre is a twit. /MQ
I can see the walls from Bruma. It's an Akaviri fortress perched on a mountain at the end of a paved road. It's like Macchu Pichu in Massachussetts.
All I'm suggesting is that the Blades have seperate departments that don't have much to do with each other. Much like Oblivion's Praetorian Guard and the orc-filled Legion fort in Gnisis.


Yeah, and those few are the only ones we see. Caius Cosades wouldn't be caught dead with these chumps.
Notice how Baurus just lets you walk away with the amulet?


If it doesn't look like a duck, and doesn't talk like a duck, and doesn't act like a duck, then draw a conclusion for the love of-

They're in different situations, and have adapted as such yes. Just as the Blades have.


The Blades are not just intelligence agents! Jesus. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that a group can have more than just one single aspect of operations. The Blades are spies, agents, warriors, bodyguards and everything the emperor needs them to be.


Why is that? He seems very serious too me. And I doubt Bethesda put him in the game to be a twit. I doubt that very much.


So you can see it? That proves [censored]. Just cause you can see it, doesn't mean you know everything that goes on there.


... Baurus let's you leave with the Amulet of Kings because of the Emperor. It's a main plotline.


I can understand your frustration. But I can not understand your obsession with them being seperate. Why can't you just understand that there is individuality to all things? Just because they are radically different, they can still be a part of the very same thing.

Armies don't spontaneously change. This is Imperial Legion. All actions are adminsistrative and soon become backed up by law and official organization. They are so diverse that they must have become different branches of service. They are obviously recruited in different ways, and do everything else differently as well. They share only a name. "The Legions are away in the provinces." These aren't the Legions, just soldiers in an Empire-spanning force known as the Imperial Legion. This is all anologous to the Blades as well. Institutions do not 'adapt.'

Yes, but they do not do it all the same time, and one agent does not go through every role just by changing the inisgnia on his underwear. That wouls be stupid. (But I've said that already.)


Well, actually it's because Bethesda dumbed-down the main quest beyond recognition. Everything they tell you in-game about the Dragonfires and the Amulet of Kings is false or not the whole story.


How about you answer the main point? It's a curiosity, an Akaviri relic. It's a magnet for attention and at the end of a main road. The Mythic Dawn found it pretty easily, don't you think? It's nominally secret perhaps, but no one really cares who knows about it because the covert arm of the Blades doesn't reside there anyway.


Pretty crappy main plotline. I foresee a major sticking point.

Arcane, covert, ruthless, vital institutions don't care much for individuality and careless organization. There is no way Caius Cosades comes hom from Vvardenfell, opens his closet and takes out some ceremonial armor so he can go stand beside the Ruby Throne. Same organization, different departments, just like real life institutions everywhere, comparable and otherwise.

@ paw-prints-in-the-mud:

Believe what you want.

You would have to put a whole lot of effort into misinterpreting Proweler's post to think that he means the same people were doing all that.

I'm on the verge of being as obnoxious as you are and posting a dictionary definition of 'department' or 'denomination.'

The CIA has kept track of housing prices in Venezuela at the same time as running massive air bases in Laos and dropping millions of pounds of bombs on Viet Cong. But these were seperate groups in the same organization. And they didn't get along well, to the detriment of both.

In Morrowind, the Blades did not just spy. They raided a Sixth House base. For that matter, a Blade killed the Ash Vampires, Dagoth Ur, and fulfilled the Nerevarine Prophecies.

Not a blade, a proxy agent. Sounds like the CIA would love these guys.

"The Blades serve both as the Emperors private military as well as his intelligence service."

This is the essence of what I believe, and I don't even understand how I can be getting this sentence wrong.

I'm not being obnoxious, I understand what department and denomination means, and I do belive that the Blades have different departments. I never said anything to the contrary, all I'm trying to say is that the same people can have more than one ability, the same person or the same group can be both spies and warriors. But you seem to bluntly deny that. Which I find idiotic.

Just because the Blades have a department in Morrowind that has a current task of spying, doesn't mean all of it's members are spies only. And just because their department in Cyrodiil have a duty to serve publicly as bodyguards (among others) doesn't mean that all their members there are bodyguards only.

If you can't see that. Then I'll have nothing more to say to you, as I might as well be speaking to a dog.

S/He might have been a Morag Tong murderer too. An Arch-Mage. A Fighters Guild mercenary, or the restorer of the Bal Molagmer. But when he destroyed Dagoth Ur, he was more than anything an agent of Vivec, not an agent of the Empire, even if it was what the Empire had wanted him to do in the first place.

And on the Blades topic: Of course the Blades has people who does different things in each department. I think what paw-prints is trying to say that the fighters and the spies isn't the same persons. In Morrowind, for example, there are two Blades who are fighters: Sjorvar Horse-Mouth and Rithleen. Then there are those more typical spy-like "skillset", a scout (Elone), a hunter (Nine-Toes) and a nightblade (Gildan). There also a healer (Tyermaillin) and a mage (Surane Leoriane), contributing with their skills.

There is nothing that says that a warrior or a mage can't be a spy as well as a stealth-skilled people. All that matters are the circumstances. Spying isn't always hiding inside walls, listening to secret conversations.

The Nerevarine was presumably still the ranking Blade on Vvardenfell.