Overpowered - bored out of my mind? : V - Skyrim

» Fri May 25, 2012 3:21 pm

I can definitely relate to this topic!

Stopped and (re)started several times trying to find something that felt right for me, and the only way I've found to play that doesn't feel overpowered/broken/dirty is Sword & Shield on master difficulty, with a slew of boycotts across the board. Because of timing, with blocking, dodging, bashing and staggering, there's a lot of room for depth in the encounters. I've been killed by a bear that surprised me, even using potions, and then beaten it my next try without using any, because I learned how to fight it (When it stands up, dodge, don't try to block!). It was rewarding, you know? ^_^

For reference: One-Handed, Heavy Armor and Block, with Archery and Alchemy on the side, pretty much. Oh, and the slew of boycotts...

No Enchanting
No Smithing - No upgrading, either.
No Stealing - I feel dirty helping myself 'free' loot.
No Stealth - ESP! Also, just plain breaks AI.
No Magic
No Selling Alchemy produce - Too much free gold!
No Companions
No Pausing - Hotkeys only! Applying poisons being the only mini-exception.
No Backwards Key - Spartans never retreat! But yes. Really.
No 3rd Person - It makes melee a lot more fun, and exploring immersive.
No Skill Trainers - I always felt dirty afterwards...
No Grinding Skills - Duh!
No Compass
No Fast Travel

... I think that's everything.

:|

Using potions is overpowered under any circumstances by your logic.

Because it makes sense that you can chug 300 potions inside of one minute to keep yourself alive in even the toughest of fights.

Oh, and picking up the controller is overpowered, as well, naturally. That gives you a massive advantage over the AI, because you are not hampered by scripting.

» Fri May 25, 2012 9:11 am

Welcome to level scaling. Its not going to get better.

Wow. Level scaling is designed exactly to avoid the problem of being overpowered. And not it's being blamed for the exact opposite too. They added level scaling in Oblivion to try to keep things challenging because in Morrowind you can get overpowered. If there was more level scaling it would solve the OP's problem. That said I hate level scaling because it is unrealistic and immersion breaking for the world to change with your character.

In pretty much any game there are only two ways to solve the problem of having few challenges after reaching high levels. One is level scaling, the other is to limit the range of some key stats, like health. I favor the latter. For example, it's maybe unrealistic to have an NPC at level 40 have 3 or 4 times the health of a NPC at level 1.

» Fri May 25, 2012 10:06 am

I'll put this simply like it were arithmetic.

Balance for powergaming for the forum minority = not balanced for everyone else who doesn't strive to min/max everything and powergame their characters to be greatly powerful

Balance for people who just play the game = balanced well enough across the board, except for subset previously mentioned.

If you play your character to make him powerful, guess what? Your character is going to be powerful.

That was hard thinking, wasn't it?

» Fri May 25, 2012 11:08 am

I'll put this simply like it were arithmetic.

Balance for powergaming for the forum minority = not balanced for everyone else who doesn't strive to min/max everything and powergame their characters to be greatly powerful

Balance for people who just play the game = balanced well enough across the board, except for subset previously mentioned.

If you play your character to make him powerful, guess what? Your character is going to be powerful.

That was hard thinking, wasn't it?

I certainly do not hope you play to make your character weak and scrawny, so you would end up sitting and loading all the time because you chose to play as a an infirm old man fighting monsters with his walking cane?

» Fri May 25, 2012 5:32 pm

Using potions is overpowered under any circumstances by your logic.

Because it makes sense that you can chug 300 potions inside of one minute to keep yourself alive in even the toughest of fights.

Oh, and picking up the controller is overpowered, as well, naturally. That gives you a massive advantage over the AI, because you are not hampered by scripting.

I'm not trying to argue for or against changes. These are things I'm doing to try to make the game fun for me. I'm sharing that experience with other people who are feeling similarly. So, why be obtuse?

Sword & Shield was my last choice, but it turned out to be the most fun for me because unlike the other methods of making things dead, feels more like a mini-game, than a binary win/lose when you crank up the difficulty.

Edit: @the balance-thing. I think that's kind of exactly what people are complaining about -- that they're not even min/maxing, and they're feeling that they need to tippy-toe around the balance of the game to avoid broking it.

» Fri May 25, 2012 12:36 pm

I think its the hilarious when half the board is complaining about being OP and the other half wishes they were more OP. God how many times I've seen the " I wanna be god-like, damn you level scaling" as opposed to " I'm so OP I OHK everything!!!!" threads. So does this mean the game is actually incredibly balanced?

» Fri May 25, 2012 3:16 pm

Start using magic/bows/whatever you haven't been using while wearing heavy/light/cloth whatever you haven't been wearing armor.

» Fri May 25, 2012 10:44 pm

Huh? I'm having plenty of challenge on all my characters.

Bosmer, focusing on sword and board and archery, with light armor and no crafting.
Orc, focusing on heavy armor and two-handed, with no ranged attacks whatsoever, but smithing and enchanting.
Nord, focusing on sneak and duel-wield (dagger in the main-hand, sword in the off-hand, usually), with ranged attacks out of stealth, uses alchemy.

See, they all have glaring flaws. My Bosmer will have very weak armor, and isn't focused on a certain combat style. My orc can be butchered by anything with the sense to use a ranged weapon, or dragons. My Nord can't last ten seconds in a straight up fight, and doesn't do a whole lot of damage.

It's not Bethesda's job to limit your abilities or potential. It's your job. And if you choose not to do that, then it's not anybody's fault but yours when you pushed your abilities to the limit.

» Fri May 25, 2012 7:41 am

Most of the advice is sound, it's just not being used in the correct context or with the right intent. A lot of people act like you are an idiot if you don't force yourself to actually not play the game to it's fullest. It should not be up to the player to have a rewarding experience for using the content that was already there. That's up to the developer, and in this case, we ended up with just another "pretty" and moderately brainded game; something Bethesda seems to excel at. They have never understood, or probably even cared about the notion of balance in a game and rely far too much on modders to do their work for them.

» Fri May 25, 2012 9:29 am

I think its the hilarious when half the board is complaining about being OP and the other half wishes they were more OP. God how many times I've seen the " I wanna be god-like, damn you level scaling" as opposed to " I'm so OP I OHK everything!!!!" threads. So does this mean the game is actually incredibly balanced?

I have noticed this too. It does make me think that the game is balanced if people are posting both. In my view the game pretty balanced. I haven't played as much as some, but right now my level 10 Nord Warrior is feeling that he's progressing but still has considerable difficulty in some places.

» Fri May 25, 2012 7:20 pm

lol. OP there is no way that you are 1 shotting everything without using smithing or enchanting

» Fri May 25, 2012 8:37 pm

I certainly do not hope you play to make your character weak and scrawny, so you would end up sitting and loading all the time because you chose to play as a an infirm old man fighting monsters with his walking cane?

Because it's only possible to either be helplessly weak or demi-god powerful, right?

My, you certainly are the thinker.

I'm not trying to argue for or against changes. These are things I'm doing to try to make the game fun for me. I'm sharing that experience with other people who are feeling similarly. So, why be obtuse?

Sword & Shield was my last choice, but it turned out to be the most fun for me because unlike the other methods of making things dead, feels more like a mini-game, than a binary win/lose when you crank up the difficulty.

Edit: @the balance-thing. I think that's kind of exactly what people are complaining about -- that they're not even min/maxing, and they're feeling that they need to tippy-toe around the balance of the game to avoid feeling like they've broken it.

I am simply taking your example further. If that's being too obtuse for you, then that's probably food for thought with the reasons why you even made that post to begin with, outlining your "boycotts." After all, why not outline the reasons why for each individual boycott? I'm sure my suggestions will be found to be very consistent with what you've already established.

» Fri May 25, 2012 7:15 pm

Because it's only possible to either be helplessly weak or demi-god powerful, right?

My, you certainly are the thinker.

I am simply taking your example further. If that's being too obtuse for you, then that's probably food for thought with the reasons why you even made that post to begin with, outlining your "boycotts." After all, why not outline the reasons why for each individual boycott? I'm sure my suggestions will be found to be very consistent with what you've already established.

No im just saying that I don't see why people want to purposely keep themselves from becoming powerful but there SHOULD, and thats just my opinion, be monsters and challenges that match these powerful skills. Fine by me if YOU don't want to do it, but don't use the argument that it then restrains other players from playing like they want.
As I said earlier you can be as weak as you like but you shouldn't be restrained of using skills like ench, BS, dual, armor, alc just because they are not balanced. And we can agree that they are not balanced right? So the game's not balanced right?

» Fri May 25, 2012 3:29 pm

I play a character that uses smithing, enchanting, armor, and dual-wielding, and on adept difficulty and at level ~35 he feels completely perfectly balanced. Difficult enemies can give me a challenge, boss fights can be downright hard, but i cut through normal enemies like butter(like i should).

Honestly, guys, you're trying to fit the game into a mold it isn't made to fit. This isn't dark souls; you're not SUPPOSED to die 50 times before you can beat things. There is no respawn mechanic. For the VAST MAJORITY of players, the game is balanced nearly perfectly. For the people that level themselves to the point of god-mode, what the hell did you expect? Just play the bloody game, and improve your character if they NEED improvement, dont improve your character to insane levels and expect the game to be able to detect that you're god-mode powerful and throw harder enemies at you.

» Fri May 25, 2012 7:17 pm

Huh? I'm having plenty of challenge on all my characters.

Bosmer, focusing on sword and board and archery, with light armor and no crafting.
Orc, focusing on heavy armor and two-handed, with no ranged attacks whatsoever, but smithing and enchanting.
Nord, focusing on sneak and duel-wield (dagger in the main-hand, sword in the off-hand, usually), with ranged attacks out of stealth, uses alchemy.

See, they all have glaring flaws. My Bosmer will have very weak armor, and isn't focused on a certain combat style. My orc can be butchered by anything with the sense to use a ranged weapon, or dragons. My Nord can't last ten seconds in a straight up fight, and doesn't do a whole lot of damage.

It's not Bethesda's job to limit your abilities or potential. It's your job. And if you choose not to do that, then it's not anybody's fault but yours when you pushed your abilities to the limit.

My first choice would have been a sneaky character. It seemed like fun in the first dungeon. There were lots of out-of-the-box options for dealing with enemies, like the oil spills and the lanterns, the pressure pads and the spike-y wall of death, etc. I liked that I could shoot arrows over enemies heads to make them investigate, so I could sneak by. The problem started when I quickly realised that I could just slink by right under their nose without even needing to distract them. Or that I didn't need ingenious ways to dispose of people... Don't get me wrong, I laughed a lot at first when I shot at some bandits from stealth, and my target sits up, with an arrow through his forehead and says "is somebody there?" and continues to shrug it off as "must have been the wind!", but plinking away with impunity felt dirty, after the giggling subsided.

@doewnskitty: I was going to at first, but it felt like unnecessary... Long-winded, you know? But the above is why I ended up avoiding stealth, anyway. ^_^

I feel kind of bad now, though. I didn't mean to come off as one way or the other, just meant to share what I found. ._.

» Fri May 25, 2012 9:56 pm

I play a character that uses smithing, enchanting, armor, and dual-wielding, and on adept difficulty and at level ~35 he feels completely perfectly balanced. Difficult enemies can give me a challenge, boss fights can be downright hard, but i cut through normal enemies like butter(like i should).

Honestly, guys, you're trying to fit the game into a mold it isn't made to fit. This isn't dark souls; you're not SUPPOSED to die 50 times before you can beat things....

I believe this is a great post.

And as you get to very high levels you are supposed to be able to deal with most threats easily. That's the sense of accomplishment. When you get to a very high level and the game is boring, then it seems time to start a new character. Problem solved.

For me, right now with a level 10 Nord Barbarian, I feel the game is very balanced. I feel like my character has developed so he has little problems with bandits or basic animals. Easier at level 1 but still not so easy that I could get sloppy and survive. However, just today I had to use a lot of effort and strategy to kill two Ice Sabre Tooth Tigers (not sure if that is the right name but they were more powerful than normal Sabre Tooths), and separately three Spriggans. I was able to do it, but I couldn't just rush right in and hack away with a warhammer, I had to use some strategy and planning. Seemed very balanced.

» Fri May 25, 2012 4:12 pm

I mean I literally walk around one-hitting everyone on master and it makes the game seem so boring.
I'm level 40 and I would really like to have some more challenges in the higher levels. Some tougher, meaner monsters.
I guess the only way to get a challenge is to play a pure mage or something like that...
What do you guys do to keep the game fun and to get some challenge?

I'm lvl 41 (300 HP/Stamina, 100 Magicka) with a Leather armor that gives me 474 AR, and two Daedric swords for a total of 392 damage, and I still have to be a bit careful while exploring. If I don't use shouts wisely I could easily die against mages...

To achieve that (apart from choosing Master difficulty), I basically only have everything unenchanted, except for a Restoration helmet. You can also store the outfit you currently have and radically change it. My char has (apart from his Leather armor set and dual daedric swords) his other outfit consisting of Master Restoration robes, Peerless Restoration circlet, his wedding ring, an amulet of Talos, and a normal pair of boots, so he only has Restoration spells and shouts to defend himself. Lots of fun when playing like that

(my char is a Warrior but with an innate talent for Restoration magic).

» Fri May 25, 2012 6:29 pm

I can definitely relate to this topic!

Stopped and (re)started several times trying to find something that felt right for me, and the only way I've found to play that doesn't feel overpowered/broken/dirty is Sword & Shield on master difficulty, with a slew of boycotts across the board. Because of timing, with blocking, dodging, bashing and staggering, there's a lot of room for depth in the encounters. I've been killed by a bear that surprised me, even using potions, and then beaten it my next try without using any, because I learned how to fight it (When it stands up, dodge, don't try to block!). It was rewarding, you know? ^_^

For reference: One-Handed, Heavy Armor and Block, with Archery and Alchemy on the side, pretty much. Oh, and the slew of boycotts...

No Enchanting
No Smithing - No upgrading, either.
No Stealing - I feel dirty helping myself 'free' loot.
No Stealth - ESP! Also, just plain breaks AI.
No Magic
No Selling Alchemy produce - Too much free gold!
No Companions
No Pausing - Hotkeys only! Applying poisons being the only mini-exception.
No Backwards Key - Spartans never retreat! But yes. Really.
No 3rd Person - It makes melee a lot more fun, and exploring immersive.
No Skill Trainers - I always felt dirty afterwards...
No Grinding Skills - Duh!
No Compass
No Fast Travel

... I think that's everything.

:|

I have pritty much same rules for master difficulty type except:

No Compass+No Fast Travel: I don't see any reason why not to. Doesn't really make game harder. You don't gain or lose anything if you skip world traveling. But of course if like exploring, I don't mind.
No Backwards Key: It's ok to kite if mage or hunter.
No Pausing - Hotkeys only: Unfortunally there are only 5 hotkeys unless you count 3 extra button made for giants fingers.
No Magic: It's ok to use magic if caster
No Stealth - ESP! Also, just plain breaks AI.: Stealth is part of gameplay, it's like avoiding shouts which makes no point.

Also I use only 1 potion per fight.

If it gets too easy lvl few skills which you not going to use so you get extra lvls. I'm sure if you train enough extra waste skills you can't kill more mobs even as ranged. I think this game is in master is very fun.

» Fri May 25, 2012 1:28 pm

I had to edit out some posts because some people need to learn to discuss things without flaming, without profanity (specifically censor-avoiding profanity) However, I would like to comment:

Why should anyone avoid ANYTHING in the game?! - Does that mean that you are admitting that the game isn't balanced?

If you have more experience with RPGs, you would know that depending on the leveling style, some things you run into at lower levels are simply beyond your meager skills. You come back when you've skilled up, leveled up, whatever. That's how games work, and the fact that it was NOT present in Oblivion remains one of the biggest consistent gripes with that game. Level scaling is boring. Sneaking into a cave thinking I am awesome and having a hagraven and whatever else show me that my level 10 character is NOT yet awesome is part of the game and not boring, it's nerve-wracking on occasion.

Going back in five levels with better armor, better skills and Sanguine's staff and my housecarl? Priceless.

» Fri May 25, 2012 8:32 pm

I'm lvl 41 (300 HP/Stamina, 100 Magicka) with a Leather armor that gives me 474 AR, and two Daedric swords for a total of 392 damage, and I still have to be a bit careful while exploring. If I don't use shouts wisely I could easily die against mages...

Well theres your problem! You should be more like the OP and have Enchanted Legendary Daedric Armor with Dual Enchanted Legendary Daedric daggers with sneak at 100 and 16x crit backstab damage.

OP, you made a god then complained that you are a god......

» Fri May 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Sneaking into a cave thinking I am awesome and having a hagraven and whatever else show me that my level 10 character is NOT yet awesome is part of the game and not boring, it's nerve-wracking on occasion.

Going back in five levels with better armor, better skills and Sanguine's staff and my housecarl? Priceless.

I wholehearthy agree on that. It's just great they returned to the Morrowind system

(more or less).

Well theres your problem! You should be more like the OP and have Enchanted Legendary Daedric Armor with Dual Enchanted Legendary Daedric daggers with sneak at 100 and 16x crit backstab damage.

OP, you made a god then complained that you are a god......

Hehe, I'm already happy with 474 AR (out of the 567 cap). Besides, Leather armor looks badass on my char. I like to wear what I want, not the most powerful stuff

» Fri May 25, 2012 12:09 pm

Hehe, I'm already happy with 474 AR (out of the 567 cap). Besides, Leather armor looks badass on my char. I like to wear what I want, not the most powerful stuff

I love leather armor on my female nord hunter.

» Fri May 25, 2012 8:51 am

I love leather armor on my female nord hunter.

heh, male Nord Warrior here

It's funny, in my case the thing went like this: got Fur armor, didn't like it, and fortunately upgraded to Leather soon. Loved it (in fact, the armor I currently have is still that first one I got, minus the helmet, which I replaced for an enchanted one I bought in Dawnstar), so much in fact that I skipped Elven armor. Then scaled armor arrived. Got a full set and used it instead of the leather armor, even upgraded it once, but I quickly sold it and returned to Leather again

On weapons, that was easier...I went all the way from iron to steel, dwarven, orcish, ebony and daedric. I really like the daedric swords (looks nearly like evil scimitars), so no problems there

Only thing I miss in the game are skilled NPC enchanters. Not everyone in Skyrim is talented for enchanting...(my char certainly isn't), and that's why I have it unenchanted by now. I hope it's soon fixed by a mod.

» Fri May 25, 2012 8:07 am

I have pritty much same rules for master difficulty type except:

No Compass+No Fast Travel: I don't see any reason why not to. Doesn't really make game harder. You don't gain or lose anything if you skip world traveling. But of course if like exploring, I don't mind.
No Backwards Key: It's ok to kite if mage or hunter.
No Pausing - Hotkeys only: Unfortunally there are only 5 hotkeys unless you count 3 extra button made for giants fingers.
No Magic: It's ok to use magic if caster
No Stealth - ESP! Also, just plain breaks AI.: Stealth is part of gameplay, it's like avoiding shouts which makes no point.

Also I use only 1 potion per fight.

If it gets too easy lvl few skills which you not going to use so you get extra lvls. I'm sure if you train enough extra waste skills you can't kill more mobs even as ranged. I think this game is in master is very fun.

That's a good idea, actually. I would feel torn, a little guilty at free perks, but using the console to raise skills I'm not using to raise the enemy's levels makes sense.

Most of the last few were more about immersion. I played Fallout 3 with the FWE overhaul, and it just felt more natural that way -- exploring and chasing butterflies, rather than icons on my compass.

The others: Stealth, magic and kiting were more preference of playstyle, I guess. I still feel like stealth gets broken very quickly, and magic's effectiveness is extremely polar (calm is sooo strong, or useless.), while the kiting-thing was more to keep archery in check. Also, I have quick fingers! ... and niche potions in those slots.

» Fri May 25, 2012 8:00 am

I avoided getting Smithing up and got Conjuration instead. You can still get by with the weaker Deadric weapons and your not too overpowered. I can kill guys in master mode while sneak attacking in 3-4 hits with a bow.